Automated transcript from Descript (contains errors):
So I want to complain about. attitude to sexual consent. It is really problematic.
Most of the attention has been on the scene and the fountain head. With. Howard and Dominique having sex for the first time.
Partly because later in the book, Dominique refers to it as a rape.
And I think some people just hear her say that and then assume that it was a rape. And I don’t think it is Dominique’s opinion, the character’s opinion. At the time she says that that it was a right. So I disagree with that particular argument.
She is speaking to Gail wine and she’s trying to throw something in his face. She often exaggerates things or speaks ironically. Uh, she is not always a literal logical speaker for various reasons.
And there’s nothing on the part of the book. In any way that would give you the impression that in Dominique Franken’s personal opinion, it was a rape. Other than that. Nonsense, I guess, but I don’t think that’s the correct reading of that sentence.
However let’s team is very problematic. I’ll come back to it, but first there’s a different scene. That, I don’t know if I’ve ever heard someone complain about. But it is the first time between. Dagny Taggart and Francisco DN. Conia.
When Dagney in her mind says to herself, That she’s afraid. And what she’s afraid of. Is that Francisco will ask permission. She says, without speaking out loud, just crying it in her mind to herself. Quote. Don’t ask me for it. Oh, don’t ask me do it.
The same paragraph says what she wanted most was to submit. And that he would do what he wished the decision was his. There was nothing possible for her. Except for what she wanted most to submit. And that she did not have a good conscious understanding of what was going on or what she wanted or whatever it does. Something about no conscious realization.
Um, so that’s all bad. The reason that this scene is not as bad as the one in Fountainhead and my opinion. Is that. Dagny and Francisco we’re friends for multiple years. They’ve had multiple years of flirting and sexual tension in the past. Francisco. Has a reasonable understanding of what Dagney wants. Maybe it is plausible that he does. He might like a lot of it happened off camera.
The flashbacks don’t give you every detail you would know to be sure that he knew what he was doing, or it was okay. But. Given the plot of the story. It is reasonable to think that he might’ve known what he was doing and it was okay. There might’ve been enough communication and understanding. There might not have been though.
You know, it could go either way, but in the fountain head, There is no way that there was enough communication. They’ve had like three scenes before where they spoke to each other. Um, there just hasn’t been enough flirting and background. Understanding of each other. There hasn’t been enough getting to know each other.
For work, you know what Dominique wants. It is completely unreasonable. To think that he could understand her well enough to be confident enough to proceed with sex without asking for consent or anything. And it’s a lot worse than that because she physically fights back. Which is a big, big red flag.
That indicates that maybe she’s confused or something is wrong.
And that was the kind of thing people should talk about. They should discuss it.
Whereas with Agni and Francisco, at least they got to know each other for multiple years. And they have communicated a lot in the past with each other. So there are some possibility. That they are actually on the same page here.
But on the other hand, maybe they’ve never discussed sex before. And it was a big risk when they could’ve not been on the same page. Um, We don’t really know specifically. We don’t know specifically how much they flirted on the past. And work their way up to this and hinted out at. Or if it just kind of came out of the blue abruptly.
Atlas truck does not specify that as far as I can remember.
But in the fountain had we know for sure. The Rourke and Dominique have barely spoken to each other. And the book gives the impression that at first sight from a distance. Uh, they’re into each other. And they both know it.
And they have some like very subtle flirting. Where they, where they do things, like look at each other or look away. And somehow that is supposed to communicate what they’re thinking to each other. And they both know what’s going on. But in real life, people have misunderstandings all the time when using their clearest English.
So when you just go by gestures and facial expressions and stuff, it is very easy to get it wrong.
Oh, the other thing that’s different between the scenes, this dog, and he does not fight back. She just lies there.
It says, quote, she lay still as the motionless. Then quivering object. So at first, she is still in motion lust. And Francisco keeps going.
And they haven’t, um, discussed that. We’re just not the greatest, but.
It’s not nearly as bad as fighting back. I’m pushing him away and stuff.
I do think that if Dominique changed her voice tone, And said, no stop. I don’t consent. I don’t want this got off me. That Rockwater stopped, but.
A lot of guys tell themselves they would have stopped in that kind of situation. But they might not have people lie to themselves all the time or don’t know what they’re like or what they’re capable of or what they would do in what situation.
One of the things that happens. It’s the guy is pressuring and the girl gives up and thinks that he’s unwilling to stop when he thinks he’s willing to stop. He’s just pushing harder. Cause girls are, um, like scared of sex or something. So you just have to like keep bugging them and pressuring them more. So they give him, cause they’re like,
You know, the tablet was bothering them. So you just have to help them get over it by pushing them really hard. Which is a terrible attitude. But. People think that way.
One of the problems in our culture. Is that many women. Do not want the responsibility. Of agreeing to Sachs. They don’t want to say yes. Because then sexism some way their fault, their responsibility. And they are. Um, About ashamed about sex or something. So they’d rather not give explicit consent.
So that. They don’t have to. No that they wanted it in the, the. They chose that. There are various things that the calls line, Bahrain and stuff, but.
Ram scenes about this stuff. Uh, make it worse and give bad advice instead of helping deal with the many problems our society has with that stuff. Instead of saying, Hey guys, be more careful. She was like, Um, fantasy is where the girl submits or. Is borderline raped are really sexy and important.
And. Worth putting in your philosophical novels. That is what Ron told us.
One, the fence. People might try as that. Dominique, didn’t say no out loud that she didn’t give certain types of stops signals.
But she did give other ones that under any normal reasonable interpretation should seem like at least a maybe stop at which. K point you better check. The signal she gave being like actually trying to fight them off.
But if you just look at the verbal stuff, she didn’t say no. I think it mentions that in the book that she didn’t say now, or didn’t call out. To the mate or whatever. I forget it for maid or. Servant or whatever it was, was even home or not. But she doesn’t call out to try to have someone come.
Anyways. So you might say, well, she didn’t say no, therefore it must’ve been okay. She could have stopped it if she wanted it to. And I do not think that was correct. I do not agree with that.
People are not always able to communicate what they want. And that doesn’t make it okay to stick your Dick in them.
And a lot of times they do communicate. But it doesn’t match your standards or your expectations like. What they say means something different to them and to you, like, they think they said stop, but you didn’t hear stop. There are various reasons that’s going to happen. Like one is that the girl. Is a polite person.
Um, she’s been raised to be polite. She spent her whole life being polite to everyone. All the time. And so she beats around the Bush a lot and sort of saying the word, no. She says, oh, I don’t really like this or something. And she thinks that that is a very strong signal. That is a no, that that’s stronger than what she usually says. You should really know. She’s saying stop, stop, stop.
But she doesn’t actually say stop, stop, stop, because she’s not that kind of blunt person. So that is one of the things that happens. And you might victim blame and say, well, she should learn to communicate better. But, I mean, it’s a common thing in our society.
And guys should be aware that that is a thing that can happen and be careful about it. Th there is responsibility on them too. And then other things happen. Like the girl says stop. And the guys like. Um, you know, if you really mean stops, they stop five times in a row because sometimes girls say no, when they mean, yes,
So, unless you say stop five times in a row, I’m not going to count it as a no. And the girl says stop like four times in a row and then gives up and then cause the guy wasn’t actually explicit and didn’t say the number. You know, stuff like that happens, where the guys being completely unreasonable about how he wants to communicate.
Those are just specific examples, but there are lots and lots of ways that people misunderstand each other. I must communicate. And so in that context, Uh, you should keep it simple and clear. Instead of trying to read each other’s minds.
Instead of saying, well, she never said the magic password to stop things. You should look. Are there any negative warning signs, any red flags, and then be careful.
Work did not do that Ram. Doesn’t like that idea. She wants people to be able to understand each other with less communication than it really takes. She wants them to be more psychic than people actually can be.
And she takes that idea and she. Applies that.
Where it is most dangerous to Saks. That’s one of the worst places you could apply on. Maybe there are worst ones like military commanders, giving orders or something. And if they were trying to read each other’s minds, that’s probably worse, but you know, it’s one of the worst places you could apply it.
The lack of explicit communication as to sex. And it is a commonplace people apply it. Like it’s not just round. But it is a particularly bad place. Two. Trying to get rid of clear communication and read each other’s minds.
And that was where rant emphasizes that like she brings it up more for sex stuff than for other stuff that comes up a little bit in other contexts, but not as much. It’s not as big a deal in the other context. Because of her opinion. That basically asking for consent would ruin it.
She wants the man to make the decision.
But without the woman saying. You know, we can have sex or not your decision. And she doesn’t want. The woman to give the ma’am. That. Power authority, permission on whatever. She just wants the man to take it and be strong. And know that it’s cool.
And when men try to do that. In the real world. Where you cannot read each other’s minds. Then women end up raped.
Sexual assaults happen.
If you take the rough plot between Rockland, Dominique.
And then you run 10,000 variations on it with regular people.
And you just do a bunch of similar stories.
Some of those women are going to be filing police reports the next day.
Maybe a lot of them.
And some of the ones who don’t file police reports. We’ll be holding a grudge and feeling raped and we’ll certainly never date or marry the guy later.
As happens in the bar. There are a lot of reasons that even if a woman was raped, she might not want to file a police report.
So the fact that she doesn’t does not mean it was okay.
People are bad at communicating. And. Discussing things and consenting to things just in general. I take sex out of it and people screw this kind of thing up a lot. They have trouble expressing what they want. Rejecting things they don’t want saying no to things. They don’t want avoiding any outcomes. They don’t like.
And it’s partly because they have internal conflict. It’s not just the difficulty of dealing with other people who might be pushy. It’s also. Their own conflicts inside themselves. And then when those interact with other people, they put a different person being a little bit pushy or rude or all kinds of things can make it worse.
Having a misunderstanding with another person can make it worse. And exacerbate the ongoing internal conflict problem. They’re already having. And so people hurt each other in small ways all the time.
That’s just part of life today. People aren’t that careful. They’re not that good at thinking. They’re not that good at communicating. Things go wrong a lot.
And I’ve suggested, Hey, if you want to be a nice person, you better learn philosophy. So you can do better at these things. Otherwise you’re going to accidentally miss street people on a regular basis because that’s what people in our society are like. Um,
That has not seemed to motivate people for whatever reason.
And I don’t want them to be motivated by feeling like really pressured. Like I don’t want to be a bad person and hurt someone. Like you have to actually be interested in reason on. Critical thinking and stuff.
Anyway, in the context that people are bad at.
Interacting with other people without getting hurt in at least mild ways.
Uh, you should be really careful about really sensitive issues.
Including highly personal information.
Which people sometimes share with each other and then it gets gossiped about, and people got hurt. Like you should be careful with that stuff, including socks.
Financial info is another one.
People sometimes talk about money, share information about their income or investments or something, or someone loaned someone money. And. Those are unusually sensitive topics where people can get hurt. We’re not getting paid back and be a really big deal and be really upsetting and stuff. By the way in general.
Do not loan money to friends or anyone at all.
Unless you are. Okay. Not being paid back. Um,
People do not reliably pay back loans. And. You can easily lose a friendship or become alienated from a family member. Because you own the money and then they don’t pay you back. And then you’re mad. I don’t think they were super awful. And also you miss the money.
And so the best way to avoid that happening is don’t want the money in the first place. And thus you’re actually just going to be like, oh, whatever. If they don’t pay it back and be like, you know, I would’ve given you the money, so it’s not that big a deal. If that’s your attitude, that’s fine.
Although you still might be disappointed. Like you can gift money to people. And then they can be. Uh, way worse at life than you wanted, like waste their money. Do all kinds of dumb stuff and you can be like, oh, well I was trying to help you. And then you were just wasteful and, you know, Be upset.
So it’s also problematic to help people when you’re expecting them to do a good job with it, or use the money kind of how you would have, or in ways you approve of or whatever. Like if you give it to them that it does there, then they’re going to do whatever they do. And if they needed that loan, Um, that is a hint that maybe they’re not great with money or something.
Anyway, getting back on topic.
What work did was not okay.
The fact that Dominique actually wanted it does not make it. Okay. Because work could not have known that.
He thought he did. And I’m ran, seemed to think he did. But as a matter of fact, he did not have enough information. To believe he had concerned.
So that was really bad. You could call it rape if you call it rape. And a lot of people will object because they think of rape as like pointing a gun at someone. Using like overt violence. I mean, work did use violence, but it was part of their role play or whatever. Um,
So maybe a different example. Instead of pointing a gun at someone would be, um, Dragging their drink and then having sex with them while they’re unconscious. He didn’t do bad. Um, so you can draw a distinction that there’s like,
The rapes where the guy would not stop. Even if the girl said. Stop really, really clearly and loudly on whatever. And then there’s the one where he would stop and be horrified and say, oh my God, I didn’t know that you didn’t consent.
Also, um, you know, the girl could say I changed my mind. So even if the guy was right. She could, at any point, I changed my mind. Stop now. And then the guy shortstop and some guys widen some wooden and a lot more wooden than you might like to believe.
And they’d have some sort of excuse and not think of themselves as a rapist. Most of them.
Anyways, there is a distinction between. The ones who just definitely don’t care about consent and. Use violence or drugs or something like that. And the ones where it’s more like there was a misunderstanding and he was trying to read her mind and guess what he want. What she wanted, and both of them were bad at talking.
And she wasn’t fully sure whether she wanted it or not. Um, you know, had some mixed feelings and that made it even harder for her to say anything. And it was bad, but.
But people are bad at things. And that happens, I guess. Anyways, you could call this. That second case it’s sexual assault or rape. And that would be reasonable. Just like, I call it line when people are lying to themselves and not consciously, intentionally lying to you. You know, there, there are the people who they know they’re lying. Like they say, the check is in the mail and they know damn well, it’s not in the mail and they’re lying to you on purpose.
You know, there’s that type of lie, lie. Number one. Um, comparable to rape number one, like.
And then there’s line number two, where they lie to themselves and they fool themselves and they rationalize it and confused themselves. And. It’s still not. Okay. And I call it line and general. But it’s not the same as saying the check is in the mail when you’re quite sure it’s not.
Um, so, you know, there’s two types of rape. As well.
As two types of wine, that’s kind similar.
There’s the really, really bad one. And then the one where people are bad at things on screw up and stuff. But it’s not like fully consciously, intentional, evil.
Anyway, what work that realistically is the second one. Um, He did not have enough information to be confident that she consented. And he went ahead anyways. So that was really not okay.
But in his own mind, he wasn’t doing something bad. He wasn’t trying to hurt her. Uh, he wasn’t in his mind saying that her consent doesn’t matter.
So it’s not like a conscious malicious evil. And, you know, most bad sexual experiences are not the conscious malicious evil type where the guy just. Uh, you know, found some woman on the street, I’m dragged her into his van or whatever.
And our society is a bit confused about that. Like I haven’t looked into this in detail, but I don’t think our legal system does a good job. Of differentiating those two types of rape.
There’s a whole spectrum of how bad the miscommunication was and how guilty the man was because sometimes women say yes, but they mean, no. And there were hints and maybe he ignored some hints and the hints could have varying degrees of clarity.
Sometimes they say yes when they mean no, because they felt some degree of pressure. And was it just a very, very tiny little bit of pressure. Then she just made up the rest. Or what were, was he like a little bit more scary and that, you know, hinted that he might react badly if she said no. And there there’s a whole spectrum of how much he could hint that things will go badly for her.
If she says no. And then there’s other things that aren’t threats. They’re just various types of pressure. Like he could call her frigid if she says no. He could threaten the relationship. Beat and be like, oh, you don’t want the relationship when she doesn’t want sex. And he could conflate the relationship with fuck. So she feels pressured, but if she does want the relationship when she has to have sex,
And that is a different thing than threatening someone and it is problematic. And.
If you call that rape, a lot of people are going to not understand at all and object and stuff. But it is related to rape because it is one of the ways that sex happens when the woman doesn’t want it to happen.
And if you start thinking that way, The sex happens when the man doesn’t want it to happen fairly often for various reasons. And some of that is pressure from society. It’s not always from the partner. You know, society, pressures, men to perform sexually. If they’re in a row, in a longterm relationship or a marriage, or just having some sort of fling.
And so men feel like they have to do it. Sometimes and do it when they don’t want to. And sometimes the woman had some degree of hint that that was going on. Sometimes the man said some negative things about it that kind of indicated he didn’t want that. And the woman sort of laughed it off and mocked him and didn’t take it seriously. And then he gave up because he didn’t want to more strongly.
Indicate his disinterest in Saks. Because then you would feel bad and unmanly or whatever.
And so that kind of thing happens to men too. Even when they’re stronger than the woman and could push her away, but they don’t. But that doesn’t mean that they wanted it or it was okay. In fact, there are times when both people don’t want to and they still do it and they both have a bad time. And so the way people think about rape doesn’t.
Account for that very well. They do not have a good enough mental model to understand those kinds of nuances.
It’s I.
It’s more nuanced than lying and people really have a lot of trouble with the line thing.
Where you can lie to yourself and that confuses people.
And anyways, if you can lie to yourself, then you can lie to yourself about whether you wanted sex. And that can really confused whether there’s consent or not.
So Ram handles all of this poorly. Uh, she does not do anything to make this stuff better or explain it or go into the nuance. Those. She just presents some stuff that’s on the bad end of our culture. That is below average.
And that’s not what she does with almost everything and almost all cases. She is average or better. Like she looks at different opinions that people have. And if she doesn’t have something original to say she picks one of the better ones. The other people came up with. But for this particular thing,
I think you’ve got to say her views were below average were problematic.
And that she saw a bad example and she did it in her personal life, too. She was like 50 or something. When she decided to have a sexual relationship with her married 25 year old or something. A student.
And there’ve been complaints about that, but if she was a man doing that with a 25 year old female student, Um, Maybe it should be canceled by now.
Because she certainly doesn’t have.
Uh, defenders in the media, like powerful people who are going to excuse that.
Like there’s a lot of people who are, who hate her.
So I think the fact that it happened decades ago,
Wouldn’t be good enough to stop the hate. If the gender roles were reversed.
It’s not just an age gap. He was her student.
Because she knew what’s more than him. She was much better at thinking and arguing and logic and all that. And she could just like win debates with him about everything, even if she was wrong, probably. For example about whether they should have sex with each other. She was probably wrong about that.
And he probably objected. And she probably won the argument and then he gave him.
I don’t know the details.
I haven’t even looked into it as much as, as possible. Like there are some books about it. I’ve read some of it, but. I’m not super interested.
But anyways, that seems pretty bad. And. Unnecessary.
She thought bloody. She thought putting stuff about sex on her books was necessary because she didn’t want to leave it out. It’s part of life. And she wanted like a complete philosophy. But what she put in. Uh, have major problems.