Curiosity – Caffeine Is Bad

[MetaCreation]

@Elliot

@MetaCreation

My negative reaction might also be owing to the word “problematic” which is often used to mean “problematic language” and can be used in a very intrusive passive-aggressive controlling way.

To me, “problematic” is a fairly mild word which just means there’s a problem there. I don’t think the context you’re talking about is standard – to me that sounds related to being a kid and dealing with parents or teachers. It could vary by country or region.

Yes that’s how I always used to take the word before “problematic language” started being a thing. I didn’t mean to imply you meant it as anything like the intrusive-controlling way, I was just exploring possible reasons behind my response. It seems like I might have subconsciously allowed the intrusive-controlling use of the word to be too pervasive in my mind without realising it. Possibly something that infected me from social media (which I used to be more active on and care about, I barely use it now).

@Elliot

@MetaCreation

It might instead be that what is meant by the quoted line is: it should be disclosed in conversations where progress gets stuck and there are subconscious issues which you have to brainstorm, in which case it does seem reasonable.

Did you read the whole article? I talked about that.

I did (though it’s possible I missed things).

I think it’s unambiguously stated that caffeine etc usage should be disclosed where progress gets stuck like that.

I’m unclear if you mean only that, or if you mean it should be disclosed at all times. Here are a couple excerpts that lead me to think you might mean at all times as they are more general statements.
1:

Being drunk while posting would be more extreme and more unreasonable. But from a rational/logoical perspective, the difference is quantitative not qualitative. It’s less bad by degree to only have one beer instead of being drunk, but it’s the same kind of thing. Beer makes it harder for you to think straight. So do coffee, nicotine and pot.

2:

It’s kinda like if people were trying to have conversations with me while drunk and didn’t disclose that they were drunk. I think a lot of readers would find that example pretty bad and see my point about how that would be mistreating me. Doing the same thing with caffeine, sleep deprivation, other drugs or smaller doses of alcohol is also unreasonable in a similar way to doing undisclosed drunk conversations. It’s the same issue qualitatively, just less bad as a matter of degree, but still bad.

Whether you mean full disclosure at all times, or just disclosure when facing a stuck problem, that will impact the context of some other questions I want to ask once I understand this point.

@Elliot

@MetaCreation

Also it seems like you expect everyone to know that you said that in the past which seems unreasonable to me.

If someone has been around for less than 5 years then I wouldn’t generally expect them to know about something from more than 5 years ago unless it was particularly emphasized (like e.g. Paths Forward). I was speaking casually/informally there in a context where multiple people involved in the discussion had been actively around for more than 5 years.

I wasn’t clear there. I didn’t mean that I think you genuinely expect that of everyone. But I’ve read quite a few of your articles and had the sense that you wouldn’t mean it that way as a result. In isolation, if someone were to read this article on it’s own or without much context, I think it could be easily misunderstood and this could be avoided e.g. if you replaced “everyone” with “them” (referring to the fans mentioned in the previous paragraph).

@Elliot

@MetaCreation

That feels very intrusive, possibly because at least caffeine is a very common conventional thing, it seems “normal”.

Doesn’t it being common and conventional make it less intrusive to ask about? Asking people to disclose cocaine habits would seem more intrusive because cocaine use is less normal to do or to share with others.

Yes, good point. “intrusive” is the wrong word. I was guessing at why I was having a strong reaction.
It’s hard to recreate my thinking behind it now, as I don’t have the same reaction reading it anymore. So the guess about intrusiveness seems to have just been a bad one.

@Elliot

People will tell me they are absolutely definitely not tilted – while I could see it in their face if I was in the room, and they could see it in the mirror or feel it. They wouldn’t say it to me face to face because they’d be obviously lying and they know their face isn’t neutral, but they do say it online. They should not do that.

I think even face to face people often lie and say they’re fine. I think there’s a lot of shame around getting angry, and it can seem like “losing” or an admission of fault to be the one getting angry in an argument where people are concerned with status.

@Elliot

In any case, I think I’ve made a lot of progress towards solving these problems unilaterally by being a lot less willing to try to help anyone individually. I can just have a lower opinion of humanity and expect less from people. (On a related note, people often make wildly inaccurate assumptions about what actions by me take how much effort. This confuses them regarding social status evaluations – where amount of effort is relevant – among other things like what to ask for.)

I feel like I need to acknowledge this but I’m struggling to pick good words so this is probably going to be clumsy.
It seems sad. I guess it feels out of place to be sympathetic here, and I don’t want to be intrusive, but you have my sympathies. I don’t have a high opinion of the state of humanity myself. But within everyone there’s potential for boundless growth. Humanity remains the best thing that exists.

I have a feeling that you were making another point that I’m missing.