Gaslighting discussion (split from: Justin’s Miscellaneous Posts)

[JustinCEO]

@JustinCEO

@anonymous64

And do you think indirectly attacking ET is one of DD’s motives for smearing AR?

That sounds plausible as a motive but it actually seems like a pretty tricky issue to have a confident judgment on, at least for me. I don’t think I know DD nearly well enough or have enough recent public evidence of what his motives might be to speak on this point. If someone who knew DD well (like ET) told me they thought this was a motive, I’d believe them, but would be taking their word on it somewhat. It wouldn’t be something I’d be judging first hand.

I still wouldn’t be able to have a confident judgment on this issue. I didn’t see anything in the later discussion that would cause me to revise my statement here.

One issue is that it’s very very common to have an extremely negative attitude towards AR and to be vocal about it when given the opportunity. Bringing AR up is a pretty reliable way to make people aggro in my experience. So I’m not sure how I would differentiate that phenomenon from a motive of attacking ET in DD’s case.

[anonymous64]

@JustinCEO

I’m not quite sure why I wanted to put the lie re: no contact requests aside. Wanting to put it aside was a mistake, because I later conceded that the reasonable implication we can draw from that lie was that DD was likely engaging, on an ongoing basis, on behavior that constitutes harassment.

Your summary is factually wrong. I brought up a different piece of evidence (DD’s Ayn Rand smear) instead of the defamation. You’re presenting this like there is one piece of evidence, and that I convinced you that one piece matters, when actually I purposefully brought up something else and you conceded in response to that other evidence.

Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD? You’re still hinting, again, that such a list would have only one entry. You tried to treat that one entry like a special exception to be disregarded for not fitting the general pattern of his good behavior. Actually, a list of DD’s bad behavior and the pieces of evidence we have would have more like a dozen entries.

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

@JustinCEO

I’m not quite sure why I wanted to put the lie re: no contact requests aside. Wanting to put it aside was a mistake, because I later conceded that the reasonable implication we can draw from that lie was that DD was likely engaging, on an ongoing basis, on behavior that constitutes harassment.

Your summary is factually wrong. I brought up a different piece of evidence (DD’s Ayn Rand smear) instead of the defamation. You’re presenting this like there is one piece of evidence, and that I convinced you that one piece matters, when actually I purposefully brought up something else and you conceded in response to that other evidence.

Hmm, I think I’m confused. I’ll try making a tree or something and seeing if I can figure the issue out.

@anonymous64

Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD? You’re still hinting, again, that such a list would have only one entry. You tried to treat that one entry like a special exception to be disregarded for not fitting the general pattern of his good behavior. Actually, a list of DD’s bad behavior and the pieces of evidence we have would have more like a dozen entries.

I’m ok with making a list but, to be clear, what time frame did you have in mind re: dozen entries?

[internetrules]

I feel like it’s weird that after taking a 8 month break, to immediately start discussing the issue again, instead of being like: I was on a break, what should I do now, should I start discussing the issue. 8 months seems like a pretty long amount of time to just jump right back into the discussion without any like preface or something.

[JustinCEO]

@JustinCEO

@anonymous64

@JustinCEO

I’m not quite sure why I wanted to put the lie re: no contact requests aside. Wanting to put it aside was a mistake, because I later conceded that the reasonable implication we can draw from that lie was that DD was likely engaging, on an ongoing basis, on behavior that constitutes harassment.

Your summary is factually wrong. I brought up a different piece of evidence (DD’s Ayn Rand smear) instead of the defamation. You’re presenting this like there is one piece of evidence, and that I convinced you that one piece matters, when actually I purposefully brought up something else and you conceded in response to that other evidence.

Hmm, I think I’m confused. I’ll try making a tree or something and seeing if I can figure the issue out.

Ok I see the issue now. I think I just didn’t have a clear picture of the discussion in my mind but I tried making a tree and that helped

[JustinCEO]

@JustinCEO

@JustinCEO

Hmm, I think I’m confused. I’ll try making a tree or something and seeing if I can figure the issue out.

Ok I see the issue now. I think I just didn’t have a clear picture of the discussion in my mind but I tried making a tree and that helped

You know, I think I conceded prematurely here, but making the tree still helped. I came back to it the next day and realized something that was unclear to me initially.

I think I was actually putting the nodes I have circled as a point under DD lying about no contact requests. That doesn’t actually make sense as an interpretation based on how anonymous64 wrote their points, especially given the “And” in the topmost node. I think I was just really focused on the DD lying about no contact requests thing. But I think (and anonymous64 can correct me if I’m wrong) that anonymous was saying that because DD was willing to smear AR in a non-public forum, it stands to reason that he also smeared Elliot in non-public form. So anonymous was making a point that was self-contained from DD lying about the no contact requests.

I caught this as I was starting to make the list of DD actions/evidence that anonymous64 suggested earlier.

OT Ulysses app does tables now and they apparently paste fine to other stuff that handles Markdown (like this Discourse).

[JustinCEO]

@JustinCEO

@anonymous64

Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD? You’re still hinting, again, that such a list would have only one entry. You tried to treat that one entry like a special exception to be disregarded for not fitting the general pattern of his good behavior. Actually, a list of DD’s bad behavior and the pieces of evidence we have would have more like a dozen entries.

I’m ok with making a list but, to be clear, what time frame did you have in mind re: dozen entries?

I’m still gonna look for more but figured I’d paste what I came up with so far.

Incident	Nature	Date	Link
DD Lying About No Contact Requests & Refusing to Help	Actively Lying/Smearing; Not Denouncing Harassment	March 14, 2021	https://curi.us/2410-david-deutsch-lied-about-me
DD Working With Dennis Hackethal	Rewarding Someone Who Mistreated Elliot	Presumably ongoing for some time but a video was released September 20, 2021	https://curi.us/2482-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-november-2021
DD Smearing Ayn Rand	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Reddit post was from September 1, 2016 but email happened sometime earlier	https://curi.us/2214-david-deutsch-smears-ayn-rand
DD Smearing Various Writers/Thinkers/Intellectuals	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Various	https://curi.us/2476-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-september-2021
DD Tweeting with AndyB	Engaging Positively With Main Harasser	Various	https://curi.us/2432-david-deutsch-tweets-with-my-cyberstalker-and-harasser-andy-b

[anonymous64]

I don’t see why timeframe matters (maybe a proxy for relevance?). Any time.

In terms of relevance, I would include e.g. DD betraying the TCS parents but exclude DD putting misquotes in BoI. The misquotes do help call into question DD’s rationality and the quality of his thinking, so it has some relevance, but I’d call that part of a broader context instead of being more directly relevant.

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

I don’t see why timeframe matters (maybe a proxy for relevance?). Any time.

Yeah I was thinking that perhaps stuff from a long time ago might not be relevant anymore.

@anonymous64

In terms of relevance, I would include e.g. DD betraying the TCS parents but exclude DD putting misquotes in BoI. The misquotes do help call into question DD’s rationality and the quality of his thinking, so it has some relevance, but I’d call that part of a broader context instead of being more directly relevant.

When you said you thought there would be more like a dozen entries, I was a bit surprised, as that sounded like a pretty big number. What you wrote above is helpful because it gives me a better idea what you had in mind. I read “Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD?” as asking for a pretty narrow range of stuff – something like “evidence of DD encouraging harassment or being the type of person to do so.” I don’t think that would be broad enough to cover DD abandoning the TCS parents, though.

[anonymous64]

@JustinCEO

I read “Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD?” as asking for a pretty narrow range of stuff – something like “evidence of DD encouraging harassment or being the type of person to do so.” I don’t think that would be broad enough to cover DD abandoning the TCS parents, though.

You could think about how relevant that action/evidence is. It’s a topic for analysis instead of just assuming it’s irrelevant because you haven’t yet brainstormed or considered ways that it’s relevant so, at this time, you don’t see much of the relevance.

You could then take other things DD has done and think about their relevance too. Especially things discussed in ET’s blog posts about the harassment.

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

You could think about how relevant that action/evidence is. It’s a topic for analysis instead of just assuming it’s irrelevant because you haven’t yet brainstormed or considered ways that it’s relevant so, at this time, you don’t see much of the relevance.

Yeah. I didn’t mean to imply I was assuming it was irrelevant. I was just saying that the initial conceptual category I came up with didn’t seem to cover it. (So that might indicate an issue with the conceptual category…)

[anonymous64]

@JustinCEO

I know DD actually did a positive action in telling falsehoods about whether Elliot has violated no contact requests, but I want to leave aside that particular case for the moment

@anonymous64

DD smeared Ayn Rand (AR) in an email to a fan/stranger that ET wasn’t meant to see. We know because the recipient shared it on Reddit.

Do you think DD has also written some other smears of AR? And some smears of ET? (In non-public places that ET isn’t meant to see.)

And do you think indirectly attacking ET is one of DD’s motives for smearing AR?

@JustinCEO

I think I was just really focused on the DD lying about no contact requests thing. But I think (and anonymous64 can correct me if I’m wrong) that anonymous was saying that because DD was willing to smear AR in a non-public forum, it stands to reason that he also smeared Elliot in non-public form. So anonymous was making a point that was self-contained from DD lying about the no contact requests.

(bold added)

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

@JustinCEO

I read “Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD?” as asking for a pretty narrow range of stuff – something like “evidence of DD encouraging harassment or being the type of person to do so.” I don’t think that would be broad enough to cover DD abandoning the TCS parents, though.

You could think about how relevant that action/evidence is. It’s a topic for analysis instead of just assuming it’s irrelevant because you haven’t yet brainstormed or considered ways that it’s relevant so, at this time, you don’t see much of the relevance.

You could then take other things DD has done and think about their relevance too. Especially things discussed in ET’s blog posts about the harassment.

One connection I thought of is that DD abandoning TCS people is basically denying any responsibility for an idea he came up with that influenced a bunch of people. He also falsely denied having any position of influence or authority in regards to the CritRats when I emailed him saying he should say something about the harassment. So abandoning TCS is more evidence that he is irresponsible.

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

@JustinCEO

I know DD actually did a positive action in telling falsehoods about whether Elliot has violated no contact requests, but I want to leave aside that particular case for the moment

@anonymous64

DD smeared Ayn Rand (AR) in an email to a fan/stranger that ET wasn’t meant to see. We know because the recipient shared it on Reddit.

Do you think DD has also written some other smears of AR? And some smears of ET? (In non-public places that ET isn’t meant to see.)

And do you think indirectly attacking ET is one of DD’s motives for smearing AR?

@JustinCEO

I think I was just really focused on the DD lying about no contact requests thing. But I think (and anonymous64 can correct me if I’m wrong) that anonymous was saying that because DD was willing to smear AR in a non-public forum, it stands to reason that he also smeared Elliot in non-public form. So anonymous was making a point that was self-contained from DD lying about the no contact requests.

(bold added)

Yeah. I said I wanted to leave the no contact thing aside in words, but did not succeed in doing so in my mind.

[JustinCEO]

Added some more entries to my table (this is ongoing)

Incident	Nature	Date	Link
DD Lying About No Contact Requests & Refusing to Help	Actively Lying/Smearing; Not Denouncing Harassment; Behaving Irresponsibly	March 14, 2021	https://curi.us/2410-david-deutsch-lied-about-me
DD Working With Dennis Hackethal	Rewarding Someone Who Mistreated Elliot	Presumably ongoing for some time but a video was released September 20, 2021	https://curi.us/2482-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-november-2021
DD Smearing Ayn Rand	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Reddit post was from September 1, 2016 but email happened sometime earlier	https://curi.us/2214-david-deutsch-smears-ayn-rand
DD Smearing Various Writers/Thinkers/Intellectuals	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Various	https://curi.us/2476-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-september-2021
DD Tweeting with AndyB	Engaging Positively With Main Harasser	Various	https://curi.us/2432-david-deutsch-tweets-with-my-cyberstalker-and-harasser-andy-b
DD Abandoning TCS	Behaving Irresponsibly	Gradually over time until 2011	https://curi.us/2289-the-history-of-taking-children-seriously and https://curi.us/2460-david-deutsch-wants-to-control-others-and-his-reputation
DD Turning Lulie Against Elliot	Using Personal Influence to Turn Someone Against Elliot	Unclear but was active issue in late 2015 and/or early 2016	https://curi.us/2456-what-happened-with-david-deutsch
DD Arbitrarily Deciding Elliot Was Irrational and Not Problem Solving	Behaving Irresponsibly	Over a number of years	https://curi.us/2456-what-happened-with-david-deutsch
DD Admitting to Being a Social Climber	Being a Second-hander	Numerous examples from 2010 in curi post	https://curi.us/2460-david-deutsch-wants-to-control-others-and-his-reputation
DD Evading Claims at Issue	Evading; Behaving Irresponsibly; Being a Second-hander	March 14, 2021	https://curi.us/2425-david-deutschs-denial

[JustinCEO]

I very temporarily have limited availability for a few days (till the end of the week) and wanted to affirmatively disclose that so that lack of active posting wasn’t misinterpreted as disinterest in pursuing the discussion further. I will try to post some anyways to the extent I can, but won’t be around much until this Friday/Saturday.

[JustinCEO]

i added a couple of rows. Think I’m done for the moment on this table.

Incident	Nature	Date	Link
DD Lying About No Contact Requests & Refusing to Help	Actively Lying/Smearing; Not Denouncing Harassment; Behaving Irresponsibly	March 14, 2021	https://curi.us/2410-david-deutsch-lied-about-me
DD Working With Dennis Hackethal	Rewarding Someone Who Mistreated Elliot	Presumably ongoing for some time but a video was released September 20, 2021	https://curi.us/2482-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-november-2021
DD Smearing Ayn Rand	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Reddit post was from September 1, 2016 but email happened sometime earlier	https://curi.us/2214-david-deutsch-smears-ayn-rand
DD Smearing Various Writers/Thinkers/Intellectuals	Evidence of Tendency Towards Smearing People DD Doesn’t Like in Private	Various	https://curi.us/2476-david-deutsch-harassment-update-for-september-2021
DD Tweeting with AndyB	Engaging Positively With Main Harasser	Various	https://curi.us/2432-david-deutsch-tweets-with-my-cyberstalker-and-harasser-andy-b
DD Abandoning TCS	Behaving Irresponsibly	Gradually over time until 2011	https://curi.us/2289-the-history-of-taking-children-seriously and https://curi.us/2460-david-deutsch-wants-to-control-others-and-his-reputation
DD Turning Lulie Against Elliot	Using Personal Influence to Turn Someone Against Elliot	Unclear but was active issue in late 2015 and/or early 2016	https://curi.us/2456-what-happened-with-david-deutsch
DD Arbitrarily Deciding Elliot Was Irrational and Not Problem Solving	Behaving Irresponsibly	Over a number of years	https://curi.us/2456-what-happened-with-david-deutsch
DD Admitting to Being a Social Climber Who Wants to Control His Reputation	Being a Second-hander; Major Source of Conflict With ET	Numerous examples from 2010 in curi post	https://curi.us/2460-david-deutsch-wants-to-control-others-and-his-reputation
DD Evading Claims at Issue When Challenged About His Influence Over CritRats	Evading; Behaving Irresponsibly; Being a Second-hander	March 14, 2021	https://curi.us/2425-david-deutschs-denial
DD Being Emotional & Fragile When Dealing With ET	Evidence of Irrationality & Negative Attitude Towards ET	October 4, 2011 (Example)	https://curi.us/2438-david-deutschs-fear-and-revulsion
DD Not Wanting to Problem-Solve or Error-Correct Problems Related to Meta-Level Judgments About ET	Evidence of Irrationality & Negative Attitude Towards ET	September 30, 2011 (Example)	https://curi.us/2439-david-deutschs-irrationality

[JustinCEO]

@anonymous64

@JustinCEO

I read “Can you make a list of bad actions DD did and evidence against DD?” as asking for a pretty narrow range of stuff – something like “evidence of DD encouraging harassment or being the type of person to do so.” I don’t think that would be broad enough to cover DD abandoning the TCS parents, though.

You could think about how relevant that action/evidence is. It’s a topic for analysis instead of just assuming it’s irrelevant because you haven’t yet brainstormed or considered ways that it’s relevant so, at this time, you don’t see much of the relevance.

You could then take other things DD has done and think about their relevance too. Especially things discussed in ET’s blog posts about the harassment.

Now that I’ve gathered a bunch of links, I’m going to do some analysis regarding the evidence and say more about what kind of evidence is it and how it casts light on DC. I tried to put some of that in my table but it seems like I should try saying more.

EDIT: Oh and also I should say any reservations that I have about the evidence.

[JustinCEO]

For my “DD Lying About No Contact Requests & Refusing to Help” entry, my link (and my direct experience, obviously, since I was involved in that one) shows evidence of the following:

• DD is willing to active lie about ET’s actions (even to a non-friendly audience). The lies are of such a nature as to portray ET as the aggressor who is violating rights. So DD is willing to tell negative lies of a nature that damage ET’s reputation when people believe them, and to do so to non-friendly audiences. This is egregiously bad by itself. It’s also reasonable to guess from this evidence that DD is telling other lies about ET in private. Note also that ET provided evidence that he didn’t violate no contact requests but DD never rebutted this evidence, nor did DD present his own evidence.
• DD is willing to evade/deny that he is in a position to influence the CritRats in order to avoid denouncing the harassment. Taking the appropriate moral stand on a multi-year criminal cyber-harassment campaign is not a big ask and doesn’t even require being in a position of influence. DD, however, is in a position of influence. That DD won’t make even a minimal statement for his former friend implies (to DD’s fans) that ET is lying or hugely exaggerating. In context, it’s effectively pro-harassment in the same way that, in the context of WW2, “Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist.”

I don’t have any issues with or hesitations about this piece of evidence at the moment.

[anonymous64]

Curiosity – David Deutsch Harassment Update for September 2021