# SENS, Aubrey de Grey, and Harassment
**URL:** https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261
**Category:** Other
**Tags:** social-dynamics
**Created:** [August 11, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261 "2021-08-11T17:58:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/101 "2021-09-11T21:28:38Z")
LOL this guy is incredible. He denies the particular statement but then validates that he thinks in a compatible way.
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### Author:  [@anonymous15](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/anonymous15)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/102 "2021-09-11T21:32:50Z")
Atlas Shrugged:
> “Mother, I’m running a steel plant—not a whorehouse.”
Aubrey: Proudly wanted to turn his research laboratory into a whorehouse for donors by pressuring young women.
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/103 "2021-09-11T21:40:32Z")
I thought SENS should focus where they had a competitive advantage – intellectual stuff – but AdG 1) turns out to be a bad intellectual 2) explicitly wanted to use any and all non-intellectual tools. One context for my opinion was donation campaigns and marketing, that I thought should try to stand out intellectually instead of trying to blend in with the same pandering that other charities use.
He likes being the general in such a major cause. It glorifies him and he thinks it justifies stuff, like non-intellectual methods, that would otherwise be bad. Ironically he thinks trying to do something so important justifies him worrying about rationality _less_.
But he doesn’t see it as a responsibility to live up to. He’s never like “This is a big deal, and I’m the general, so I damn well better make the SENS newsletter and website be good. I need to get some website and internet marketing experts.” Doing a shitty job at some stuff is fine with him, and then he brings up being a general when it suits him.
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/104 "2021-09-11T21:48:05Z")
> The six-week investigation into [Complainant #2’s] allegations against me has concluded. It was conducted by someone named Sue Ann Van Dermyden - look her up - good luck to anyone who tries to paint her as a whitewasher. It has found not only that those allegations are 100% fictitious
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/105 "2021-09-11T21:53:53Z")
> The consequence (other than my reinstatement, obviously) is that a new investigation is being launched, again by Sue Ann, but this time investigating SRF so as to identify the actual villain. The existence of that new investigation is going to be made public tomorrow afternoon - unless, drum roll, it is obviated/aborted by new information.
this guy is just off on another planet, spinning ridiculous fantasy stories
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/106 "2021-09-11T21:56:40Z")
it’s common that ppl with high social status stop being responsive to critical feedback.
ppl’s mechanism for listening to others and accepting corrections is generally mostly a social mechanism that’s not great at truth seeking. some people with very high social status stop seeking approval and trying to get approval, cuz they have enough, so then it breaks their ability to get corrections and stay tied to reality.
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/107 "2021-09-11T21:58:09Z")
oh that’s interesting
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/108 "2021-09-11T21:59:05Z")
so if you win at second-handed status competitions the “prize” is an even looser tie to reality than you had before
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/109 "2021-09-11T22:02:19Z")
> Next, we find Dr. de Grey’s message an attempt to distract from his own conduct – part of which he admitted (sending a sexual message to underage mentee Complainant #1) – and to point to another individual as the “actual villain.” Regardless of anyone else’s motives or conduct in pursuing an investigation, the fact remains that Dr. de Grey is responsible for his own conduct, regardless of how it came to light.
Indeed.
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### Author:  [@JustinCEO](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/JustinCEO)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/110 "2021-09-11T22:02:58Z")
solid report
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### Author:  [@Apricus](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Apricus)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/111 "2021-09-11T22:05:11Z")
The part where he implied both saving someone’s career and also ending their career in the same email was ominous to me…
> The consequence (other than my reinstatement, obviously) is that a new investigation is
> being launched, again by Sue Ann, but this time investigating SRF so as to identify the
> actual villain. The existence of that new investigation is going to be made public
> tomorrow afternoon - unless, drum roll, it is obviated/aborted by new information.
>
> I probably don’t need to spell out anything more. [Complainant #2’s] career is absolutely
> over as things stand, and the only reason it actually isn’t is because I am a man of honour
> who refuses to let somebody (especially a meteoric rising star) be burned at the stake
> while an actual villian [sic] gets away scot free and is thereby emboldened. Yes she will
> have to take some lumps for being so gullible, but that’s not such a big deal. BUT, what
> will completely torpedo my rescuing of her is if she is seen to be resisting the
> identification of the actual villain. So now, as in tomorrow (Thurs) morning, is the time
> when [Complainant #2] needs to find her mojo and spill the beans. As of now, a few
> people are in the frame as the culprit. [Complainant #2] needs to name names, and fast,
> so that no one gets to know that this new investigation is happening as a direct
> consequence of her insincerity to Sue Ann and the world.
> And you need to tell her so, as probably only you can. Go to it.
He’s so condescending in this too…
Like:
> Yes she will have to take some lumps for being so gullible, but that’s not such a big deal
He’s like offhandedly insulting this person’s intellect while asking her for help while threatening her while offering to “rescue” her career… What a rollercoaster
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/112 "2021-09-11T22:05:28Z")
This reminds me of something AdG wrote to Celine:
[https://www.sens.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SENS-Executive-Summary-For-Public-Release-FINAL-091021-00323152xC0E95.pdf](https://www.sens.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SENS-Executive-Summary-For-Public-Release-FINAL-091021-00323152xC0E95.pdf)
> I’ve just been told that you’ve been tweeting a low opinion of me, though without any explanation. I had no idea that you had any reservations about me, and I hope you know that I’m not scared of criticism and don’t ever take it personally. I’d really appreciate knowing what I’ve done that has caused this. Happy to skype/zoom/whatever if you prefer.
My first thought, when I read this, is that he’s a liar, and such lies are common and give “open to criticism” a bad name. People – rightly – don’t trust it. “Tell me what you really think” said the emperor – and then I did – and then he didn’t like it and had me executed. “Tell me what you really think, I want to hear criticism and doubts” is often a trap to try to trick enemies into exposing themselves.
But my thought now is: AdG isn’t scared of criticism, and doesn’t take it personally, because _if he doesn’t like it he just assumes it’s wrong_. He holds frame and doesn’t let threatening stuff into his reality. Like Rami.
People find criticism scary because they remember it and think maybe it’s right, but if you’re fully arrogant and don’t care about facts then you can just dismiss stuff you don’t want to hear – be like “oh it’s cute that you have that misconception” and just try to correct the critic (or think that and don’t reply since you aren’t very approval seeking cuz you have so much already and/or think you do). There were signs of this in DD communications with me and others where he was pretty openly saying he deals with disagreement by trying to think of how to explain to the other guy that they are wrong, not by considering that he might be wrong himself. That arrogance makes criticism an annoyance (correcting ppl takes work and sometimes they resist corrections) rather than leading to actually doubting yourself. This stuff works best if you already have lots of status so if some critic doesn’t like you and fails to be corrected that isn’t a big deal.
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### Author:  [@Apricus](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Apricus)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/113 "2021-09-11T22:10:05Z")
> [@Elliot](#):
>
> “Tell me what you really think, I want to heart criticism and doubts”
heart → hear I think
And good points. I’ve said I’m open to criticism in the past but was often lying to myself. However, if people give me real criticism then, I do my best not to respond negatively because I’ve just asked them to do specifically that, so it would be weird to respond poorly to a thing I specifically asked them to take a risk to give me.
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/114 "2021-09-11T22:12:04Z")
AdG FB posts. Before report released:
[https://www.facebook.com/aubrey.degrey/posts/6689637291061723](https://www.facebook.com/aubrey.degrey/posts/6689637291061723)
After:
[https://www.facebook.com/aubrey.degrey/posts/6690833170942135](https://www.facebook.com/aubrey.degrey/posts/6690833170942135)
Doesn’t say much.
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### Author:  [@Apricus](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Apricus)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/115 "2021-09-11T22:14:47Z")
First comment on that second facebook post begins:
> The report denies the most serious part of the accusation - cutting funding as retaliation.
Is that really the most serious part? I guess retaliation would be more serious than harassment (maybe) but this kind of diminishes the seriousness of the acts the report found him actually guilty of.
Rest of the comment:
> In spite of this, the language of the post is quite harsh. I am really scared by the behavior of the people in SRF board, the way they behaved is simply unacceptable! Starting from unanimous firing up to using very harsh language that harms reputation of Aubrey.
Edit: Many of the FB comments seem supportive of Aubrey. People seem to think that this didn’t constitute harassment, asking people for sex is OK, and that if he didn’t corner someone or do something more than email them, then it’s not that bad.
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/116 "2021-09-11T22:31:03Z")
If it’s not that bad, but Laura and Celine told the truth, then _why are they so mad at Laura and Celine_ for revealing true, minor stuff? Hell, even lying about accusations that aren’t a big deal would not be that big a deal, right? Like if I lied that my boyfriend ate the last cookie after I said I wanted it.
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### Author:  [@Apricus](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Apricus)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/117 "2021-09-11T22:31:21Z")
> [@Elliot](#):
>
> But my thought now is: AdG isn’t scared of criticism, and doesn’t take it personally, because _if he doesn’t like it he just assumes it’s wrong_ . He holds frame and doesn’t let threatening stuff into his reality. Like Rami.
I imagine this would lead to so much self-deception over time. If he can’t be corrected on stuff where he just discards the criticism, he’d basically be stuck with those errors ~forever.
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### Author:  [@Apricus](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Apricus)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/118 "2021-09-11T22:32:48Z")
> [@Elliot](#):
>
> Hell, even lying about accusations that aren’t a big deal would not be that big a deal, right?
Good point. If I lied about someone stealing half a sandwich from me 10 years ago in elementary school, nobody would really care. Although maybe lying in general should be a bigger issue than people make it out to be, because if I’m willing to lie about that, what else am I willing to lie about to achieve my goals?
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### Author:  [@Elliot](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Elliot)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/119 "2021-09-11T22:50:40Z")
If it’s such a big deal to do whatever it takes in the **war** on aging, and specifically to act in ways donors like, why doesn’t AdG do that himself and lead by example?
He has a reputation for being drunk. That’s gotta turn off some donors. Plus, if he didn’t drink at dinner events, he’d have his wits about him better, and make better decisions about what to say to donors. He could think strategically better.
He wants women to use their femininity with donors, but he won’t even spend a day sober. And then, while drunk (and while emailing women that they should use non-intellectual asserts), he wants people to donate because they believe in his mind and intellectual vision.
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### Author:  [@Lebowski](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/u/Lebowski)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/sens-aubrey-de-grey-and-harassment/261/120 "2021-09-12T15:45:37Z")
> [@Apricus](#):
>
> > > That is what I thought. It is at the same level of women in World War II sleeping with Nazis to get information. It is a war against aging here. You have to persuade people to give money. That is honestly who I am. I am the general.
>
> Just wondering if Aubrey is willing to have sex with rich, old men to further fund SENS, since he’s comparing this in importance to gathering info from the Nazis in World War II. He says he’s glad to use whatever capabilities he has if it will further the cause…
Whether he would or wouldn’t, I think his analogy reveals something nasty about how Aubrey views actual or potential SENS donors.
I think there is enough similarity between trying to solve aging and a war to not dismiss the analogy itself out of hand. Most notably, if we fail to defeat aging the consequences are a fuck-ton of suffering and death. I think there are problems with the analogy too though. Aging isn’t creatively plotting against us; it can’t be negotiated with or persuaded; it doesn’t have the kind of secrets that could be revealed by pillow talk.
Nevertheless if we go with the war analogy, I think it is possible sometimes to use sex as a weapon against someone **on an enemy’s side** in a war - to get access, information, or money to do something the person wouldn’t want done.
Is that also true if the person is already on your side? Like, did/could Brits have slept with Americans in WWII so we’d help out more in the war? Seems like a stretch, and it definitely wasn’t the analogy Aubrey chose.
Similarly with neutral parties: Did the allies send women to sleep with Swiss politicians in hope that they’d come into the war on the allie’s side? Would that have worked? I really doubt it, and Aubrey didn’t use that analogy either.
Aubrey used sleeping with Nazis in his example. So it sounds to me like Aubrey views his actual/potential large donors as being on the side of aging in the war. He thinks it’s necessary to use sex as a weapon to get them to help the anti-aging side, cuz otherwise they don’t want to. The donors are an enemy to be defeated - with sex if necessary - rather than an ally who wants to help.
It kinda fits with Aubrey’s pro-aging trance idea. I just didn’t think he extended that all the way to people seriously considering a large SENS donation.
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