It’s okay. I think it’s good to discuss even if it’s not directly related to the truth of point #2.
I moved this to the top so it’s visible. (It’s the only proper on-topic part)
Yeah that doesn’t surprise me (I don’t know too much about what Trump particularly has done besides disallowing trans women in women’s sports – which I agree with and I don’t think counts as being anti-trans).
How is this retreat different from improving an explanation in response to criticism in the usual way? Just that it’s bad faith? (If so, what about the people who aren’t making the argument in bad faith?)
I’ll be honest: yes, at least a bit. Well, no in that the actual facts of the matter are important to me, but I do care about sex characteristics too. I care more about the truth but I’m biased and flawed, too.
Here’s a bit of a brain dump, maybe TMI but you’ll get more of a sense for my mental state:
brain dump mental state
I think I am somewhat transphobic in a technical sense. I don’t outwardly show disgust (especially around trans people), but I don’t like transness, I don’t think it’s good for the individual, society, or the future of society / civilization and that worries me. I also believe strongly in individual autonomy though and the right for people to live their life how they want, even if that means doing horrible things to themselves. I feel deeply sad for detrationsitioners that regret transitioning, especially when it involved the more irreversible stuff (like bottom surgery). I wish there were more safeguards in the way.
I also think I have valid points against TRAs. I think pushing trans stuff on kids is objectively wrong and I don’t think that’s transphobic. I don’t think it’s transphobic to advocate for alternate reversible treatments first like therapy that is not affirmation based. I think there’s a lot of medical malpractice going on, and people suffering from gender dysphoria (regardless of whether it’s learnt, induced, or whatever) are pushed into things way too fast and not given proper medical advice, and are treated really badly whichever way they go. I think it’s connected to bigger societal issues. I think people on the left often become trans because it’s a way to fit in – being ‘normal’ isn’t ‘normal’ anymore – and that’s bad.
I also like feminine women, and like women to be feminine.
Maybe that’s internalized patriarchy or misogyny, I’m not really sure. Probably a bit of both (I’m less sure about the misogyny though).
I regret some of what I thought and how I acted when I was younger because I think it wasted precious time (mostly of the women I dated). I don’t like that I contributed to a culture that I think is uncooperative when it comes to long term relationships. I don’t like that I sometimes treated women badly, but I also don’t like that sometimes I was treated badly. I feel like I wasted a lot of time focusing on having sex instead of focusing on trying to find a good long term relationship. I want kids and I am afraid I’ll miss out on having the kind of life I want (incl. a family) because I didn’t take things seriously when I was younger. I’m envious of friends who do have that or are well on the way to it but also glad for them. I feel sad for friends that are half way there and might not make it because life starts so late, now. I think all this is related and maybe being somewhat anti-trans is an outlet for that frustration.
So yeah you’re probably half right. But I also think you’re half wrong.
I don’t like that I’m probably a bit transphobic, but I also don’t like the behavior of TRAs.
I don’t like the violence from the left or how they seem to escalate everything to either being an ally or somehow wanting them dead. I also don’t like that trans people feel like other people don’t see them as people. I think it’s all round a pretty bad situation and is getting worse.
I get the feeling some people definitely want that and use whatever arguments work to further that. They want to men to be manly and strong and a moral authority, and women to be feminine and thin and demure and all that.
But I think there are actual gender critical people who aren’t serving a patriarchal agenda, too.
I think I’m probably a mix of both.
I also think the same kind of thing is happening on the other side: there are ‘trans’ fetishists that get off from exposing themselves in women’s changing rooms or from other people referring to them as women, and there are people actually suffering from gender dysphoria who have terrible anxiety every time they need to use a public bathroom because there are no good options. I have some sympathy for the second group.
Sorry if the volume I’ve posted these last few hours is a bit overwhelming. I promise I’m updating the discussion tree and will post that soon. Then we (or maybe just I) can get back on topic. Feel free to respond to whatever you want to and think is most important. (Maybe some of these posts can be separated out into their own threads, too. Maybe this is a good post for that.)
Here’s the in-progress discussion tree if it’s useful. I’ve highlighted the new nodes.
bfitf-ch3-pt2-discussion-tree-2-pre.excalidraw (171.2 KB)