and
My fiance ārapedā me and idk what to do (Reddit)
Iāve been really contemplating over what to do and I donāt know if Iām overreacting so kinda looking for advice here.
A pattern Iāve seen is that many women question and doubt themselves after really bad behavior by men. They are socialized to put up with a lot. And this conflicts with the āitās just a few bad applesā defense: if the terrible male behavior was just a few outliers, then Iād expect widespread agreement that itās really bad, in which case there would be less self-doubt about it.
Also SA on Uber:
Iāve seen that pattern happen. My first thoughts sometimes is that theyāre not immediately jumping to a conclusion like theyāre open to criticism kind of. That doesnāt sound right tho. Especially after really bad behavior.
Ok I think I see how it conflicts with that defense like not all men are bed. Itās those few that ruin it for everybody kind of. Itās hard to think that you got the bad apple as the partner.
That makes sense I think the bad that the man would give off would be obvious and easy to spot. Like I have some examples in mind but itās intuitve.
āitāsā is referring to the terrible male behavior
āin which caseā means the case where the terrible male behavior is a few outliers. That and where itās agreed in a widespread way that itās very bad. In that case there would be less self-doubt than there is now.
The OP adds in the comments:
the surgeon told me that ovarian torsion is actually not that rare but itās missed constantly because doctors assume women are exaggerating or itās just gynecological pain that we should tolerate. she said she sees this ALL THE TIME
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1of7wbn/tw_boyfriend_crossed_a_sexual_boundary/
Based on the comment section, other men have behaved similarly and have escalated from there.
IDK that it conflicts that much, or at least it seems like thereās more going on. For one, I feel like a simplistic analysis doesnāt play out: if 1/3 of men were trying to socialize ppl to treat it as okay, that shouldnāt work if the other 5/6 of people were against it. It feels like there must be 50%+ of people contributing to it for it to be so stable and pervasive. Maybe thereās a big lag factor too, so things might be better than that implies.
If that many people are contributing to it, that population seems greater than the number of actual bad men out there. (Unless it is nearly all men, then itās plausible.)
As a bit of a general update, my views are changing some. I feel like the issues Elliotās been posting about are pretty big and pervasive. Iām not sure I should be convinced by so few examples, though. I kind of feel like the world is full of more and worse people than I thought before.
Also the US healthcare system seems fucked. I wonder what the bottlenecks are, like billing for imaging is mentioned in the comments in the twisted ovary reddit thread, which seems like a weird bottleneck (it doesnāt seem like scarcity of resources is the issue).
I thought some parts of her story were notable:
we went to a different ER across town. second doctor is a woman maybe 30s. she does the same stomach press thing and says āitās probably just a cyst, they usually resolve on their own. try a heating padā
(from OPās linked comment)
my mom called yesterday and said I should be grateful I still have both ovaries and that maybe I was āa bit dramatic with the screamingā at the third ER
2 of the 4 women in the story (the other two being BFās sister (nurse) and the older woman doctor) have problematic responses. The doctor doesnāt take her seriously and her mother (!) is expressing a suppressing social dynamic. Not sure exactly how to describe the motherās behavior, but it sounds like a negative/combative response about that part of the story which is meant to cause shame and suppress that behavior (in others).
It would help if you posted responses more often to links I share and other things I say. When youāre silent, itās highly ambiguous about whatās going on. The same issue comes up with other people about all sorts of links: I share less due to lack of feedback.
When people are silent, itās hard to tell when they agree, disagree, are overwhelmed, want more, etc.
Posting updates is especially helpful when youāre actually changing your mind. If you donāt share changes, people wonāt know and may think you still believe stuff you said in the past. Being more specific about ways you changed your mind is helpful too.
Quantity of evidence isnāt the key issue. How evidence fits into arguments and reasoning is the key issue.
But I broadly agree: you should want see more evidence and check what patterns do and donāt hold in more examples. Have you gone looking for it? That is something you can do. If you want help figuring out how to find it, you can ask.
All large groups or power structures have lots of flaws.
It has always been that way. This is compatible with enlightenments, industrial revolutions, inventing computers and cell phones, and many other good things.
You donāt have to be pessimistic about human progress, or your personal prospects for having a good life, just because of societal flaws.
You can view errors as opportunities for progress: thereās room for improvement there. Things could be even better than they already are. And they are pretty good already in a lot of ways.
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The majority of people support this social system, including many women. Supporting the system and doing really bad behavior are separate things.
In general, people are mean to small minorities instead of socially legitimizing them. This suggests that there are a lot of bad actors and/or some powerful bad actors.
Even if there are a lot of bad actors, there are even more supporters of the system than bad actors.
Its not like Ghislane went out and kidnapped these girls and forced them into having sex with rich and powerful men. She identified and curated girls that were willing to. The world is full of girls like these. Me and every guy I know spent our late teens and early 20s trying to identify these same kinds of girls. In all the pics Iāve seen of them they were all smiling and having a good time. They seem like they wanted to be there.
Bold added.
Its only years later, when these girls, now not quite so desirable, see an chance to make a buck, so they start claiming they were victims.
These girls were all opportunists
ā¦ but the media narrative Iām referring to that neither side will question is that all the girls involved in the sex ring are now being portrayed as āvictimsā.
One question I would have for this poster, RedneckTexan, is whether Virginia Giuffre is a victim now that sheās dead.
The use of the word āgirlā makes things a little confusing like is the poster talking about girls underage or over 18? Im thinking theyāre talking mostly about the kinds of girls from the posterās last three sentences. It doesnāt have to do so much with age I think.
I noticed I used the word āgirlsā too in my last paragraph. I donāt know how much of a problem it is to use that word
How man guys is that? Is this representative of other guysā friends group? Like representative of the whole US population? How often did they look for these females? Was it regularly? Daily? How often do guys look for other women at the present on average? How many friends do guys have on average?
What would your goal be for asking the poster that question? Would it be to try to let him know he might be wrong? Or would you want to let him know that he is wrong? Are you trying to have the audience question the posterās view like think more criticality about it? Would it not really be about trying to convince the commentor about something? Would it be to inform him of something he overlooked? Would your goal be to send it out there and make sure the world knows that thereās not one way to view this āno victimā perspective?
I ask cuz i donāt know I wish we could find a common preference when talking with each other, but it seems like weāre just not going to. Thatās just not the way people online talk do they? Cuz I think the poster would just ignore you or question how Giuffre died (i.e. blame her for suicide)or go more on how important it is that all the women in Epstienās ring were opportunists.
He denied that sheās a victim for one issue. But he didnāt mention another issue. I donāt know what he would say about it.
Oh ok for the first isssue itās about the victims coming out and saying how badly they were treated. The other issue was people like Giuffre who died from being a victim in Epsteinās ring.
Oh thatās also why you asked the question. I think I get it. I think I assumed too much about what the poster would do and why you wanted to ask a question.
I think I was thinking why you wanted to ask the question then I thought of reasons you wanted to ask. I thought there were alternative motivations for questions and I thought that was something you did. Iām used to thinking others have other motives when asking questions. Im unsure how a direct question looks like sometimes.
Based on the comments, many women have trouble couchsurfing without being hit on or SAed. Avoiding all single, straight men helps.
Healthcare for bleeding women.
Abortion when your baby isnāt going to survive.
In theory, trying to be charitable to men, I might say that there is a big difference between being hit on and sexually assaulted. Enough that they should not be lumped together like that. I think this might also be the kind of objection that @anonymous45 could raise.
Imagine if I said āIf you go visit Fred, thereās a high chance you will be challenged to a game of chess or brutally murderedā ā what an unhelpful claim. One of those sounds basically fine, maybe a bit unpleasant if you donāt want to be challenged. The other is horrible. What is the breakdown between them? How often does he brutally murder vs. challenge to chess? Did he brutally murder one guy once due to extenuating circumstances (that the courts did not see as murder), and otherwise he just loves chess?
Itās unclear. Theyāre way too different. There is basically no reason to lump them together like that.
So imagine if you could couch surf and get hit on 90% of the time, or get sexually assaulted 0.001% of the time. That sounds like a potentially viable risk to take. The risk of sexual assault could be worse if you were homeless or whatever your bad alternatives are to couch surfing.
Getting hit on is annoying, but if you donāt appreciate the attention then as a woman you can just say āno thanksā and the guy that tried to hit on you will accept that with no problem. Then you both move on with your day and everything is fine, no harm done.
Right?
Not really.
Of course this is why I said āin theory, trying to be charitable to menā above. The reality is that getting hit on by men is not very safe. A lot of men do not just calmly accept rejection with no issues or retaliation. If you are at a guyās mercy, e.g. couch surfing, it can actually be very scary to be hit on. It can be dangerous to say no. In addition to the possibility of sexual assault, you could get kicked out or he could retaliate in other ways.
Some women will feel pressured, understandably, and might decide itās easier to give in than risk making the guy angry. At that point, being hit on is almost indistinguishable from being sexually assaulted. There is a famous bit from Itās Always Sunny in Philadelphia that you can find on YouTube if you search for ābecause of the implicationā that is related to this issue.
So where does that leave my comment?
I guess in a better world, it would be important to distinguish between being hit on versus being sexually assaulted much more clearly. But in the real world, both of those are a bad/dangerous thing when couch surfing and women will understandably seek to avoid them both if possible.
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I know you explained problems with this later in your message but Iāll reply anyway.
I grouped them because they are both things women want to avoid, and the milder one leads woman to fear the worse one.
If women were 100% confident they were physically safe when they were hit on and said ānoā once, then some of them would just deal with it (I think some would still want to avoid it). But when they get hit on in this kind of situation, the SA risk goes up and they donāt know how safe they are.
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From that:
why can men never just be normal? itās supposed to be about sharing and kindness etc
instead all male hosts seem to use it as a hookup app at best and a funnel to select rape victims at worst
~I wonder why thatās the case. Brainstorming:
- Guys are taught to care about sex a lot.
- But then I hear things about how women like sex and dating a lot1 . So why arenāt they doing these things as much (I say as much because I assume thereās like one or two women who have done these things). Theyāre just better people? They canāt because their weaker. Testosterone?
- I think most guys just suck at regular emotional sharing and stuff like that. I think there is the sentiment that guys see girls as sex objects. I think thatās true to a large extent, but I also think guys just see other guys as objects to a point. Yeah your boyfriend doesnāt know your birthday, but he also doesnāt know any of his friends usually. Most guys will say its because that kind of thing doesnāt matter, but I donāt know.
- Something I thought about: I think most people have pretty crappy lives. Attraction gives a good feeling in the middle of a crappy life. I think people chase that attraction high. I think guys do that a lot.
- I think a combination of caring a lot about sex + feeling entitled to womenās bodies + a guy being unattractive to women, can lead to SA and rape. The thought process is āSex is important, I deserve sex, women wonāt give me sex, women wonāt give me something I deserve and that is important, so Iāll just go ahead and rape themā
1. I donāt have much experience dating. Its close to zero/very limited. All my opinions and stuff are just coming from stuff I read, stuff Iāve observed, and stuff Iāve heard people say.
Sad that avoiding single, straight men helps but isnāt a guarantee or something. Like you can go to the house of a couple or something and still get hurt.
Side note:
I wonder how much of this has to do with porn.
I think kids seeing something online will think its normalized. Iāve heard stories of kids doing dumb shit because of streamers and stuff like Kai Cenat and IShowSpeed.
In a similar manner I wonder if there are a generation of men whoās primarily sexual knowledge is ridiculous porn scenarios. Maybe? But also sexual abuse and stuff has been a problem for a while anyways so I donāt know how much could be attributed there.
Thats wild that one of the doctors responses was āWhat if your husband wants kids?ā. Though, I guess, I wonder if heās had issues of women regretting stuff like that.
The 5 minute zoom call is a big yikes though. Sucks that women seem to have to fight to get something. Though, did she end up getting something? I donāt know if i missed that.
Thatās really sad.