I Changed My Mind about Error-Correcting Debate, Misogyny and More

I changed my mind about some things. These examples are illustrative of potential weaknesses of focusing on error correction and critical discussion like Karl Popper advised. I don't think the weaknesses are inherent or unavoidable. They're practical issues that don't require different epistemology principles to address. They're just ways you can go wrong if you don't know enough.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://curi.us/2611-i-changed-my-mind-about-error-correcting-debate-misogyny-and-more
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Great post! Your willingness to change your mind and share your past mistakes is a big part of why I respect you.

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An implication is tht u may be right, correct? Like, ure idea wasnt refuted and tht it’s reasonable? Not too sure there.

From my experience, this attitude(??) u had, i thot it was cool cus it looks logic based and idk it’s talking from a place with a lot of in depth knowledge. When i first noticed tht attitude/idea i always noticed tht i tried to make sense of it on my own and tht it was hard to. But i would usually think like, “no this is how real intellectuals can think of things when they’ve become top in their expertise.” I think i never really tried being super curious about the attitude or try to use it or understand it for my learning. I thought it was a thing tht would come later when ure really good at things no? In a way i feel like im talking about something else in this reply so far. So mb if yea n i wanna know how if yea

In a way, I think ive dealt with something similar tht changed my mind. Like, I now think jus cuz i don hear any good arguments( i think) doesnt mean tht the other side doesnt have any good criticisms or things to consider. Wat made me realize tht is when i talked to my brother. We would disagree so much about a lot of things often, and in one convo i told him it was very difficult to talk to him cuz i try so hard to understand his side n account for it, but he jus keeps disagreeing with me on a lot of points anyways.

On a side note, I think im probably making many mistakes taking to him like how well am i actually understanding his side?

But it all made me think like maybe he does have some good points to bring up but hasnt said it yet or cuz of how conversation works im not gonna hear it. Like, it might be difficult to get the good point from him and i may never hear it without a lot of effort. Maybe u changing ur mind parallels me changing my mind?

I enjoyed reading this, thanks. Some thoughts and reflections I had along the way:

People, including authors, pundits and academics, will use bad examples and bad evidence despite much better stuff being available.

How do we judge what is best? Is it possible that people use what they found persuasive and their sense of that is badly calibrated?

I have some thoughts but I’m not confident that I know an answer. Good arguments/evidence means it’s persuasive or resistant to criticism or something like that. Part of the problem is that, while I have a decent idea of what I think my keystone claims are (which I think are resilient and/or persuasive), I don’t know what other people (whom I disagree with) think are their keystone claims.

If cooperation is an option (so I can ask what their keystone claims are) then debate trees could solve this. The problem there is the requirement for near synchronicity. Large time gaps would be less of an issue if we publicly maintained debate trees, kind of like how academic journals can have debates that run for decades, but more organized and focused.

Failing that, my intuition says to read and listen and try and figure out what their keystones are, but that’s what you’ve done and found that it’s not very effective.

Do we have a term for ‘keystone claims’ yet? I feel like we should and I’m just not remembering it.

This resonates with me. It’s something I had no skill in or appreciation of prior to CF; I think I started really appreciating the idea in the 2020 tutoring.

I can’t remember if BoI encourages this much at all, but I think it’s notable that after reading BoI, I was convinced of fallibilism but I didn’t really have an appreciation of epistemic humility or know how to practice it, or even know that I should be practicing it. (I still have a lot of room left for improvement, of course.)

Also, thinking about how you changed your mind in the essay and the lengths you went to, I don’t think that I would have done that. Which is kind of exciting in that it’s a bit of a glimpse of stuff on the horizon. I don’t exactly have the words – it’s like the feeling of an amateur seeing an artisan and knowing that there’s a whole lot of progress to make if I want it.

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Yes. People go by a variety of things. What persuaded them, what they think will persuade or manipulate others, what’s popular, what’s socially acceptable, what their abstract logical analysis says is good, what their biases say is good, what is convenient, what they think sounds clever.

I don’t think BoI is effective at encouraging intellectual modesty/humility, partly because Deutsch isn’t actually good at it, and partly because he tries to pander to readers more than he tries to change them. Deutsch’s fan community is generally rather irrational even when they aren’t harassing me. They’re silly and arrogant on Twitter, and they also do things like form an Institute and publish books on topics they know little about: Curiosity – The Sovereign Child Contradicts Taking Children Seriously And they may be even less open to debate than Less Wrong or Effective Altruism.

Deutsch also talks about grand stuff like theories of everything and he broadly thinks his ideas are super important and high quality on many topics (not just for one or two specialities).

I fear what too many people did with me (and with Deutsch and many others) is try to agree instead of giving critical feedback. I think a lot of responses are polarized between trying to agree or being broadly argumentative, and more mixed or nuanced responses are less common.

So I shared some stuff trying to get critical feedback and thought it had been exposed to people’s critical thinking when it hadn’t and they were just trying to learn it and agree with it even though it was tentative stuff I wanted to explore not teach. This came up with repeating things Deutsch told me (which, even if he believed them for many years with confidence, I still wanted to expose to critical scrutiny) and with some early-stages ideas of my own.

The argumentative people often don’t give good criticism either even when there are better arguments available on their side, which they don’t know about, don’t like, or don’t use for other reasons. So winning arguments with some people and getting praise from others doesn’t mean the ideas have been exposed to very good critical thinking even if everyone says they’re Popperians who did critical thinking.

Lots of people withhold intuitive, practical, or experience-based criticisms/disagreements/counter-examples when they are trying to be clever intellectuals and use logical philosophical arguments.

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Great article! It reminds me of this video about being intellectually humble.

Was this over time? Did this happen when CF was up? Did I do this? Later on in ur reply(first sentence of second paragraph), I think u say u wrote exploratory things and that people tried to learn instead of being critical. I wonder if I I tried to learn instead of being curious or trying to understand more of what u say.

Idk what polarized means well so ill look it up

Ok, after looking it up, I think it means that the responses are like the oppossite of each other. Like, they try to agree a lot or disagree a lot.

I think ure looking for the more mixed or nuanced responses cuz they are at least being more fair I think. Like, they don’t just shut down the part of themselves that disagree I think.

Yeah, I wish this intellectual stuff was easier cuz I think there’s so much one could miss or overlook and it could get in the way of understanding what u say.

How does one know they’re giving critical feedback? What does critical feedback mean? Giving critical feedback sounds like a goal that’s hard to be successful in if one doesn’t it practice enough.

The problem is that Deutsch could be very wrong about some of the things he showed u or taught u, but u’re not getting the critical feedback that would help to know.

Does the quote above show that there may be deficiency in I guess the community’s rational skills?

I think I’ve noticed this offhand over the years. Makes me think it’s hard to be an intellectual idk. Like, it seems hard for people to be rational idk.

I wonder how it looks like when ideas are being exposed to very good critical thinking. Like, what do u see members do? What do you see them employ? I think they would use stuff like post mortems or maybe debate trees. Like it would be automatic for them and they would be cool with using those. Maybe they could make up their own rationality tool that’s not problematic to use idk.

I wonder why but it seems that the quote explains some.

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Have you tried using AI to identify or find the good arguments / resources for different positions? If so, how’d it go?

This feels like a problem that AI could help with, particularly identifying candidates and finding new/unique arguments. It might take a deep research kind of harness.

it helps some. it typically works better for finding leads than web search or google scholar search. you can’t trust its summaries, so it’s a lot of reading to check stuff well.

it didn’t work for finding inductivist responses that actually engage with key Popperian points. i’m not sure those exist. but it worked better on other topics like MCDM.

Okay yeah. I tried it earlier on some UBI stuff and it worked pretty well. I have a draft post about it I’m finishing (which I started beofre this post so I might have to finish the UBI one later).

I thought I’d try with the inductivist stuff and see what I could get:

Prompt

note: i find the AskUserQuestion tool mention helpful with claude.

and then some questions and answers:

Main Response

https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b07595ea-9067-4c5d-b7c6-51d8e04cd6fc

compass_artifact_wf-13afd578-1840-4054-9e8b-0a7f9d123741_text_markdown.md (20.7 KB)

After that I asked a follow up and while reading the first criticism of Popper, I felt like I could address it, so I’m going to (and maybe more).

Insert during editing: I reason through the top two arguments with some annotations of thoughts. Even if these arguments it found aren’t new or interesting, I think some of my thoughts are (interesting at least, some were new to me). It felt like good practice.

[Max:] summarize the strongest arguments assuming the reader has a familiarity with popper but not with the specific arguments in question (so you need to state poppers position and the criticism).

Full Response

model was claude opus 4.6 extended.

I note that CF instructs us on what to do without saying whether we should expect A or B to work. I am not sure if CR does or not, though. I think CF’s instruction is via yes/no and thus original to CF.

It’s implied that A and B disagree, so the bridge that theory A suggests will work is predicted to fail by theory B and vice versa.

If theory B has not passed the same tests as theory A (because they haven’t been performed), then this seems like a non-inductivist way to favor A over B. Thus, I’ll assume B has passed all the tests that A has.

If B has passed all the same tests as A, then there is no reason to favor A over B.

Response to Horn 1: “well-tested” is suspicious to me here. If we are comparing A and B and B is not well-tested, and that means it has not been tested against important cases that A has been. The motivation to choose A is not from its well testedness, rather it’s to avoid B’s lack of testing. (Note: inductivism trap here: B’s lack of testedness is not a prediction that B will fail.) We criticize B: “it fails test X”. In reality we don’t know if this criticism is true, but disproving it should be easy (pass test X). We should treat B as tentatively refuted if we are forced to choose A or B. If B has passed test X (for all X), then A and B are both well tested and the argument breaks.

So Horn 1 is wrong. Either we have a reason to reject B in favor of A, or the argument is broken.

(Note: I looked up modus tollens and it doesn’t seem like I need to respond to that directly.)

Response to Horn 2: seems right.

Okay I feel like this is an adequate response to the argument as put here. Maybe the original argument was better or more precise in a way I glossed over.

I think I used CF knowledge in answering it, so I’m not sure if Popper would have possibly given this response.

A more direct CF response is that it’s okay to have two options because either they agree or we can figure out which is correct. In the extreme case, the bridge we’re building is the experiment because theory A and B must disagree on whether the bridge designed under theory A works or not.

I’m not sure I’ve realized this before as a property of CF’s approach: For all practical real world decisions, if we have a plan under either theory, then: either there is no conflict in this case or that plan is an experiment which will criticize one or both theories.

That’s really elegant. It also sets an upper bound on the cost of figuring out the truth when there’s a conflict: just build both options (at least one will fail).

Hmm, by what standard is something surprising? It wasn’t a surprise to the theory that predicted it. I’m not sure Popper would have put it like that. My intuition is that it’s surprising because it disagrees with the dominant theory, in which case the prediction being true is a criticism of the dominant theory.

Hard to vary comes to mind as the CR response. I’m using BoI phrasing, was this one of Popper’s ideas that DD didn’t credit in BoI? If so, that seems like a Popperian criticism of the argument.

Also I think the predictions-before-data thing is kind of overblown. In part because new theories tell us where to look (disagreements in predictions). The important part of predictions-before-data is that the data is not the motivation for the theory. Also, if we have a theory with prediction X and then discover some old archived data that can be used to test prediction X (and the theory passes), intuitively the fact the data predates the theory/prediction should not be a criticism of the theory.

I don’t think the quaver is a very good argument unless it was something Popper never resolved. Assuming this is accurate, I admire Popper’s willingness to discuss it. Hmm, time to google it I think

[Research here partially informed by LLM] Okay, so Putnam used the phrase “inductivist quaver” and Popper quoted it in Replies to my Critics. Popper claims Putnam didn’t understand Popper’s ideas and that he was using ‘induction’ in a broad loose way that wasn’t philosophically meaningful.

[My thoughts] In hindsight, I think Popper was wrong to dismiss this and concede to a lesser point (that the argument is true only when ‘induction’ is used too broadly). I say ‘in hindsight’ because I think my responses were better and are more consistent with CR. I’m not sure if CF has more to offer in this case that I didn’t spot.

Hmm, I don’t want to accidentally get the wrong idea about Popper because I was lazy and used an LLM instead of sourcing the original text.

Can’t find it :frowning: edit: found it

I feel like Popper would cringe at that last part – his regard for Newton shouldn’t have any bearing on which explanation (of why UG was good) is correct, or how effective an argument is. I think there’s some social dynamics stuff going on. It’s a bit weird to think about because this is claude output (though it did learn it from human text).


Haven’t read most of your post but:

This has no relevance to a steelmanned Popper that focuses on his key critiques of induction and a stripped down solution (conjectures and refutations and error correction and evolution) that omits corroboration which isn’t central or really necessary. Corroboration is an attempt to add more detail and solve additional problems, but it’s not required to decide induction is wrong and have a general framework for an alternative.

Also the question isn’t devastating at all. The more effort we put into error correcting ideas, the better those ideas are on average. Everything else being equal, they’re lower risk than new ideas or ideas that got less critical review. Even if abstract epistemology theory ought to go in some other direction, there’s a straightforward and fairly reasonable and practical answer to this question.

Ahh, I think I misunderstood what you initially meant, then. In my prompt I have the “in modern parlance” part which steered it away from looking for inductivist responses to Popper’s criticisms of inductivism (which is now what I think you originally had in mind).

yeah the primary thing i meant was some kinda coherent statement of induction + defense against some critiques. so e.g. an account of induction which addresses the which patterns/correlations are important and likely to continue in the future? question instead of just saying it as if there are only a few and they’re all good (no, there are infinitely many or at least a very very large amount). (that isn’t Popper’s wording but I think it’s in line with Popperian thinking.)

This reminds me of an old scam about stock market predictions: week 1 you mail out stock predictions advertising your psychic investing service to 64 zip codes, half the zip codes say XYZ will go up, and half say down. Week 2: you forget about the 32 zip codes where you were wrong. For the remaining 32, 1/2 get a letter predicting up and vice versa. Repeat till you have like 6 correct predictions for 1 zip code, then ask for them to subscribe or send you cash or whatever.

I wonder how an inductivist would respond to something like this, actually. If they’ve never observed the scam before, on what basis should they refuse? (I feel like this kind of case should be obvious enough that some inductivist has addressed it)

yeah I know that scam. it’s kinda funny but also I think it’s really hurt people :(

I wouldn’t expect that. Feel free to ask AI to search for someone addressing it.

Claude didn’t find anything.

I asked lesswrong:

uh okay, apparently it’s front page material. I added the Bayesianism tag but the others including frontpage were automatic.

edit: I think maybe all posts get that, and then they can be removed if problematic.

ChristianKl on LW wrote:

Bayesianism has no rules for what someone priors should be. It has rules about how to progress from a state of having priors.

FYI this is problematic because whenever decisive arguments are used (e.g. a piece of evidence that contradicts some things and doesn’t contradict others), the probabilities/credences for all non-refuted ideas stay in the same ratios. In other words, you observe a black cat and you rule out some things like “there are no cats” and “all cats are white” and the probability from those refuted ideas is distributed to all non-refuted ideas in proportion to the probability they already have.

In other words, if you only use decisive arguments, all your non-refuted ideas are evaluated entirely based on your priors. The priors fully determine what wins.

It’s only indecisive arguments which can favor some non-refuted ideas over others. Decisive arguments can’t do that. In Bayesianism. As far as I know.

And IMO your priors should be essentially random because otherwise you’re presupposing some other ideas and intelligence before Bayesianism in order to guide you to have intelligent priors, but priors are supposed to come prior to intelligent thinking. In practice they always seem to use priors in line with common sense and science, not random priors.

I think their answer is that most or all arguments are indecisive, e.g. if you see a cat it doesn’t decisively refute “there are no cats” it just lowers the probability a lot.

To actually get useful updates that significantly change the ratios between ideas established by your priors, and let you move away from your priors making much difference, I think you need not only indecisive arguments but indecisive theories which make probabilistic claims. If one theory says “there is an 80% chance I’ll observe a cat today” and another says “there is a 20% chance I’ll observe a cat today” then observing or not observing a cat today can favor one theory over the other and that can influence your conclusions more than your priors do.

My take is most of our ideas in most fields aren’t like that, aren’t that statistical, so Bayesianism does a poor job of learning its way to the point that bad priors have a small impact. Also, stronger claims like “There is a 100% chance I’ll observe a cat today” tend to dominate over the hedged claims – some of the stronger claims lose but the ones that match all the evidence dominate, so the focus ends up being on the really strong claims which are the ones where probabilities are affected most by priors.

If I’m missing something, I haven’t been able to find out what it is over the years.

I haven’t seen any essays/analyses about effective updates (that cause theories with lower prior probability to pass theories with higher probability while neither theory goes near 0% or 100%) vs ineffective updates (where the probability ratios of the non-refuted theories stay about the same as they were in your priors).

“ineffective” updates are always effective in some sense or for something. If you rule out theory C, then the update is effective re C. but if A and B are both non-refuted, it may be ineffective relative to A and B. and the thing I’m interested in is updates which are effective re theories that both start (before the update) and end (after the update) at probabilities that are not approximately 0 or 1. so e.g. A is at 0.2 and B at 0.3, but after the update, A is at 0.4 and B is at 0.35. That would be an effective update because the probability ratios of A and B changed and neither one is at approximately 0 or 1. A doesn’t have to pass B for it to be effective. If A went to 0.25 while B went to 0.31 that’d be effective too. Or if one goes up and the other goes down, that’s effective.

I asked Claude Opus 4.6 about this but was unable to get useful answers about something I’m missing.

https://claude.ai/share/01834cda-013d-4277-b834-7b0594fa1792