I Changed My Mind about Error-Correcting Debate, Misogyny and More

Okay yeah. I tried it earlier on some UBI stuff and it worked pretty well. I have a draft post about it I’m finishing (which I started beofre this post so I might have to finish the UBI one later).

I thought I’d try with the inductivist stuff and see what I could get:

Prompt

note: i find the AskUserQuestion tool mention helpful with claude.

and then some questions and answers:

Main Response

https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b07595ea-9067-4c5d-b7c6-51d8e04cd6fc

compass_artifact_wf-13afd578-1840-4054-9e8b-0a7f9d123741_text_markdown.md (20.7 KB)

After that I asked a follow up and while reading the first criticism of Popper, I felt like I could address it, so I’m going to (and maybe more).

Insert during editing: I reason through the top two arguments with some annotations of thoughts. Even if these arguments it found aren’t new or interesting, I think some of my thoughts are (interesting at least, some were new to me). It felt like good practice.

[Max:] summarize the strongest arguments assuming the reader has a familiarity with popper but not with the specific arguments in question (so you need to state poppers position and the criticism).

Full Response

model was claude opus 4.6 extended.

I note that CF instructs us on what to do without saying whether we should expect A or B to work. I am not sure if CR does or not, though. I think CF’s instruction is via yes/no and thus original to CF.

It’s implied that A and B disagree, so the bridge that theory A suggests will work is predicted to fail by theory B and vice versa.

If theory B has not passed the same tests as theory A (because they haven’t been performed), then this seems like a non-inductivist way to favor A over B. Thus, I’ll assume B has passed all the tests that A has.

If B has passed all the same tests as A, then there is no reason to favor A over B.

Response to Horn 1: “well-tested” is suspicious to me here. If we are comparing A and B and B is not well-tested, and that means it has not been tested against important cases that A has been. The motivation to choose A is not from its well testedness, rather it’s to avoid B’s lack of testing. (Note: inductivism trap here: B’s lack of testedness is not a prediction that B will fail.) We criticize B: “it fails test X”. In reality we don’t know if this criticism is true, but disproving it should be easy (pass test X). We should treat B as tentatively refuted if we are forced to choose A or B. If B has passed test X (for all X), then A and B are both well tested and the argument breaks.

So Horn 1 is wrong. Either we have a reason to reject B in favor of A, or the argument is broken.

(Note: I looked up modus tollens and it doesn’t seem like I need to respond to that directly.)

Response to Horn 2: seems right.

Okay I feel like this is an adequate response to the argument as put here. Maybe the original argument was better or more precise in a way I glossed over.

I think I used CF knowledge in answering it, so I’m not sure if Popper would have possibly given this response.

A more direct CF response is that it’s okay to have two options because either they agree or we can figure out which is correct. In the extreme case, the bridge we’re building is the experiment because theory A and B must disagree on whether the bridge designed under theory A works or not.

I’m not sure I’ve realized this before as a property of CF’s approach: For all practical real world decisions, if we have a plan under either theory, then: either there is no conflict in this case or that plan is an experiment which will criticize one or both theories.

That’s really elegant. It also sets an upper bound on the cost of figuring out the truth when there’s a conflict: just build both options (at least one will fail).

Hmm, by what standard is something surprising? It wasn’t a surprise to the theory that predicted it. I’m not sure Popper would have put it like that. My intuition is that it’s surprising because it disagrees with the dominant theory, in which case the prediction being true is a criticism of the dominant theory.

Hard to vary comes to mind as the CR response. I’m using BoI phrasing, was this one of Popper’s ideas that DD didn’t credit in BoI? If so, that seems like a Popperian criticism of the argument.

Also I think the predictions-before-data thing is kind of overblown. In part because new theories tell us where to look (disagreements in predictions). The important part of predictions-before-data is that the data is not the motivation for the theory. Also, if we have a theory with prediction X and then discover some old archived data that can be used to test prediction X (and the theory passes), intuitively the fact the data predates the theory/prediction should not be a criticism of the theory.

I don’t think the quaver is a very good argument unless it was something Popper never resolved. Assuming this is accurate, I admire Popper’s willingness to discuss it. Hmm, time to google it I think

[Research here partially informed by LLM] Okay, so Putnam used the phrase “inductivist quaver” and Popper quoted it in Replies to my Critics. Popper claims Putnam didn’t understand Popper’s ideas and that he was using ‘induction’ in a broad loose way that wasn’t philosophically meaningful.

[My thoughts] In hindsight, I think Popper was wrong to dismiss this and concede to a lesser point (that the argument is true only when ‘induction’ is used too broadly). I say ‘in hindsight’ because I think my responses were better and are more consistent with CR. I’m not sure if CF has more to offer in this case that I didn’t spot.

Hmm, I don’t want to accidentally get the wrong idea about Popper because I was lazy and used an LLM instead of sourcing the original text.

Can’t find it :frowning: edit: found it

I feel like Popper would cringe at that last part – his regard for Newton shouldn’t have any bearing on which explanation (of why UG was good) is correct, or how effective an argument is. I think there’s some social dynamics stuff going on. It’s a bit weird to think about because this is claude output (though it did learn it from human text).