Liability: The Legal Revolution and Its Consequences

A topic to post some notes and thoughts on Liability: The Legal Revolution and Its Consequences. I’m going to refer to it as Liability.

I read upto, but not including, chapter 3 (is upto an inclusive word?). I stopped reading for a while and recently got reminded to read it again. I also haven’t been reading much in general. Or, I guess, reading stuff outside of an assignment role. I’ll read stuff here as a student, I’ll read some of Elliots posts and articles as a student, or I’m reading stuff for my classes as a student. I haven’t been reading much (tts or just normally) at all recently. So I’m trying to set aside 30 minutes a day to read something. After I read this I think imma read some stuff on mold.

Here’s some stuff from today. All quotes are from Liability:

M UCH of the business of law is mystification and misdirection.

Long words are better than short ones; more words, better than fewer. If the concept is really important, render it in Latin.

Other fields do stuff in latin. I wonder why? I know scientific names are a thing. Those use latin. Is something about latin particularly beneficial for these things?

These familiar lawyerly techniques have been used to remarkable effect in recent years to transform the law of accidents.

So we’ve made the law of accidents (I think tort?) into something harder for the average person to understand?

It has benefited almost no one but the lawyers who run it.

I think this is a common complaints. Lawyers are expensive. All our laws have made life harder and not really that much safer. Also, a common joke(?) is how everyone is screwed in a lawsuit except the lawyers. The damaged party doesn’t recover much and it can cost him a lot, the damaging party loses out on a lot of money and time, and the lawyers come out with a pretty paycheck.

Hmm. Now that I think about it. Suing and all that stuff people complain about I think fall in the realm of torts.

It adds only a few cents to a pack of cigarettes, but it adds more to the price of a football helmet than the cost of making it.

Because cigarettes are dangerous and smoking them is on you. A football helmet that has a defect or is maybe just not perfect can cost a company a lot of money on liability. After all we expect the helmet to keep us safe. So it’s on the company to make sure you get a good helmet.

The tax goes by the name of tort liability. It is collected and disbursed through litigation. The courts alone decide just who will pay, how much, and on what timetable. Unlike better-known taxes, this one was never put to a legislature or a public referendum, debated at any length in the usual public arenas, or approved by the president or by any state governor. And although the tax ostensibly is collected for the public benefit, lawyers and other middlemen pocket more than half the take.

Hmm. Tax? I guess in the sense that the government is collecting the money and disbursing it. Thats more or less we do with normal taxes.

Tort law has existed here and abroad for centuries, of course. But until quite recently it was a backwater of the legal system, of little importance in the wider scheme of things. For all practical purposes, the omnipresent tort tax we pay today was conceived in the 1950s and set in place in the 1960s and 1970s by a new generation of lawyers and judges. In the space of twenty years they transformed the legal landscape, proclaiming sweeping new rights to sue.

Tort law as we know it is a peculiarly American institution. No other country in the world administers anything remotely like it.

I’ve heard that kind of sentiment before, but I kinda assumed it was more cultural than legal. I watched a podcast based in Japan and the hosts have shared stories about how its not really a thing to sue in Japan for cultural reasons. I think its just something I passively picked up. I doubt they actually looked into the legal realities of Japan. But some of the podcast hosts are from the U.K. and they shared that theirs a fair amount of suing in Britain. I wonder if that’s accurate. Things also could have changed from the time of the books publishing.

Tort law is the law of accidents and personal injury.

I wonder if that’s how tort law used to be defined/understood? Cause something like trespass to land and trespass to chattel (among other things I probably don’t know yet) don’t seem to fall under accidents and personal injury.

I mean accidents and personal injury definitely seems to be a part of tort. Just not the defining thing of tort.

Until quite recently, the law permitted and indeed promoted advance
agreement of that character. It searched for understandings between the
parties and respected them where found. Most accidents were handled
under the broad heading of contract —the realm of human cooperation —and
comparatively few relegated to the dismal annex of tort, the realm of
unchosen relationship and collision. The old law treated contract and tort
cases under entirely different rules, which reflected this fairly intuitive line
between choice and coercion.

So people used to agree what they would do in case of an accident. I guess using the football helmet before: you used to just accept the risk of the product. Maybe they would refund you but you bore responsibility for it. You could always buy a different football helmet.

Or in medical malpractice: you would agree that a doctor can make a mistake (even a negligent kind of mistake like doing a surgery drunk) and you guys agreed to do certain things depending on the issue/accident.

Then, in the 1950s and after, a visionary group of legal theorists came along. Their leaders were thoughtful, well-intentioned legal academics at some of the most prestigious law schools, and judges on the most respected state benches. They were the likes of the late William Prosser, who taught law at Hastings College, John Wade, Professor of Law at Vanderbilt Uni- versity, and California Supreme Court Justice Roger Traynor. They are hardly household names, but considering the impact they had on Ameri- can life they should be. Their ideas, eloquence, and persistence changed the common law as profoundly as it had ever been changed before. For short, and in the absence of a better term, we will refer to them as the founders of modern tort law, or just the Founders. If the name is light- hearted, their accomplishments were anything but.

So some of the Founders were:

William Prosser - Hastings College, William Lloyd Prosser - Wikipedia :

Prosser authored several editions of Prosser on Torts, universally recognized as the leading work on the subject of tort law for a generation. It is still widely used today, now known as Prosser and Keeton on Torts, 5th edition.

John Wade - Vanderbilt University, https://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/03/obituaries/john-wade-83-torts-authority-and-dean-of-law-at-vanderbilt.html :

John W. Wade, an authority on tort law

Roger Traynor - California Supreme Court Justice, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_J.\_Traynor :

Traynor believed (in the words of his biographer, G. Edward White) that “the increased presence of government in American life was a necessary and beneficial phenomenon.”

During his tenure, the decisions of the Supreme Court of California became the most frequently cited by all other state courts in the nation.

Also, Traynor did not uniformly join all opinions that could be characterized as “liberal” or “progressive” during his time on the Court; for example, he filed a two-sentence dissent in the landmark case of Dillon v. Legg (1968),[25] which was a major step towards the modern tort of negligent infliction of emotional distress.

Just curious what I could find on these gentlemen. Their all pretty much known for tort law (except Traynor who seems to be known for a lot, including Tort).

I’m not very clear on what the change was. Did a larger proportion of lawsuits get handled as torts instead of contract issues or are more total lawsuits being filed? Were more things treated as implied contracts in the past which are now treated as torts instead?

I’m still in the process of reading the chapter where he more concretely talks about what happened/changed. I’ll share some stuff from the chapter soon, but so far:

  • More avenues to tort were open. So one change he mentions is that, previously, if you decided to buy a lawn mower you, the buyer, took on the risk. The courts changed that. They took the assumption the other way. They said, “We assume the product is safe when nothing is said, therefore if it ends up being dangerous its on the seller.”
  • Strict liability was introduced. In particular it was the issue of who is liable in a strict liability case. I’ll find the case and share later, but a case brought up a defective car. The defective car was defective by, I think, the manufacturer. The dealership was able to be held liable (even though in contract they said they would not take on any liability) for the mere fact of selling the defective car. They played a part in getting it to you, so they can be held liable.

I don’t know what this means. Say the product has a tiny, reasonable risk. One customer gets injured through carelessness or bad luck. Can he sue? Even if there was no negligence by the company, no false advertising, and reasonable communication about the product specifications (no misleading consumers by omission), etc?

Or do you just mean you can be sued if you sell a high risk product with no warnings (lying by omission)?

This sounds bad because it means a dealer could be sued even if they do nothing wrong: no negligence, no false advertising, etc.

Is the dealer supposed to sue the manufacturer to recover everything they lost when they were sued? That sounds like a bad, inefficient system. It has more total lawsuits (consumer sues dealer who sues manufacturer is two lawsuits instead of one) and also it’d be problematic if the lawsuit outcomes didn’t match.

Also in general I don’t think manufacturers should be sued for defective cars if there is no negligence, false advertising or other wrongdoing. People or companies who do nothing wrong shouldn’t be vulnerable in court. If it’s just bad luck that something goes wrong with a particular product, the manufacturer should just repair, replace or refund, not be liable for damages.

I do think negligence and various kinds of fraud, including false advertising, are common including in cases where current courts probably wouldn’t agree. Is the legal system holding companies responsible too much in general to make up for being unable to identify a lot of negligence and fraud?

Is this really saying that people who do nothing wrong should/do lose lawsuits? That seems really bad on principle. Am I missing something?

So I finished chapter 2 which covered some changes to tort/contract law. It didn’t share too much in the deeper thought process behind the change. It just said it did change because of these judges and it changed in these certain respects.


Chapter 2: The Death of Contract

Not all painful or harmful acts are torts, however. Consent, or its absence, distinguishes many harmful acts from tortious ones, or at least it used to.

The beer might perhaps injure Baker every bit as much as the blow. But his willingness to buy and consume the drink made a crucial difference. The old common law took the concept seriously enough to render it in Latin: volenti non fit injuria —“to one who is willing, no wrong is done.”

It used(?) to be that actions were tortious where consent was absent. The book mentions that tort was generally used for things such as car accidents and battery (hitting someone). Such things where people rarely, if at all, have contracts governing expectations and what should happen and stuff.

Most accidents and injuries were covered by contract, not by tort. Tort rules applied, of course, if Smith and Baker collided on the highway as utter strangers. But aside from collisions on the road, mishaps between strangers are comparatively rare. Workplace accidents are preceded by a contract between willing employer and employee; surgical accidents by a consensual doctor-patient relationship;

A lot of accidents happen between parties with an established relationship. In establishing that relationship they typically will have contracts that define what they will (and won’t) do in cases of accidents and mistakes. This was true even when purchasing products (though this Vandermark v. Ford Motor (Maybell) did play a part in overturning that):

Chester Vandermark and Maywood Bell landed to- gether in court only because they had earlier come together amicably in the sale of a car. And their contract unquestionably did cover responsibility for accidents; it spelled out that Maywood Bell would be liable for the replacement of defective parts, and nothing more.

Moving on:

Nobody wants the accident, of course, but everyone enters the deal aware that it may happen anyway. No doubt we’d prefer to get food, shelter, transportation, and medical care without paying any safety price for them; we’d rather not pay a cash price either. But neither option exists in the real world, or so at least the old law stoically presumed. The common sense of the day suggested that the contingency of an accident should be addressed ahead of time, when tempers are cool and minds clear. The old rules therefore placed great weight on the initial agreement. Buyer and seller were allowed to set the terms of their own deal, on questions of safety just as on questions of price. The courts viewed the Chester Vander- marks of this world as intelligent adults, whose freely made contractual commitments were to be respected and enforced as bargained for.

I think that makes sense that accident stuff “should be addressed ahead of time, when tempers are cool”. It also makes expectations knowable. Currently you kind of figure out what you are liable for after the fact. You caused X damages and you are suddenly liable for them. Previously (assumably) you know beforehand what you would reasonably held liable for and what you wouldn’t be held liable for.

He then goes onto give some history of tort/contract:

If a person promised to build you a house but did a bad job of it —roof caving in, crumbling foundation, no chimney for the fireplace you could sue. As they always do, the common-law judges borrowed from their own history. Your rights had been trampled on by the incompetent carpenter, they now reasoned, in much the same way as your rights would have been offended if a stranger wandered onto your estate without invita- tion and camped on the land —hence the use of the word trespass.

Ok. So it’s not that liability for mistakes and bad work is new. Its just what you can be liable for thats new it seems.

The earliest contract cases recognized no remedy if the builder or the doctor had promised to build the house or cure the disease and never bothered to show up for work at all. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centu- ries, common-law courts developed the writ of assumpsit which reflected a new recognition that harm could be done because someone had done nothing, after promising otherwise.

With the writ of assumpsit, which became the cornerstone of modern contract law, we arrive at the very definition of contract. It comes down to us from nearly a half millennium of use: A contract is a promise or set of promises, freely made between willing parties, which the law will then enforce.

So prior to the writ of assumpsit we didn’t have the modern view of contracts, since, without it, you couldn’t do anything about broken promises where one party did nothing. You could previously sue for doing a bad job at X, but you could’t sue for not doing X at all.

Contract law —the whole idea of making persons stick to their agree- ments and promises — is thus rooted in a notion of consumer protection.

It reflects the idea that unless the law holds people to the bargains they make, the unscrupulous and irresponsible will exploit the conscientious and trustful. And it serves to put the powerful and the humble on the same plane. Great lords and ladies may not need a court’s help to keep a carpen- ter from defaulting; they control many future building commissions and a whole apparatus of local power as well. The yeoman householder may have nothing but the law on his side. It is surely one of the greatest ironies of modern law that latter-day reformers have come to see contracts as nothing more than a stacked game in which producers hold all the cards, a mere pretext for the oppression by the weak of the strong. History teaches otherwise.

I get the point he’s making here but I think the issue many people have nowadays is the one sided nature of contracts (and the fact that companies ignore their side of the contract a lot). The regular person, generally, can’t negotiate with a big corporation about their contract. You just accept what you’re given and usually the terms are quite unfavorable to the regular person.

The value of what McGee had promised but failed to deliver, of course — a usable hand with neither hair nor pencil-sized scar. It was quite irrelevant that no known surgical techniques of the day could have pro- vided a scar-free hand. Contract rules were unequivocal and they were symmetric. If the seller promised nothing in the way of safety or success, that was just what the buyer got. But if the seller promised the moon, as McGee foolishly did, he would have to deliver or convey the equivalent in money.

So damages were limited to what was promised?

The same principle extended to every contract. An employee either “assumed the risk” of performing the job or spelled out the terms of job safety and compensation for injury as part of the employment contract. The buyer of a drug, house, horseless carriage, or scar-free hand did the same. To be sure, there might be legitimate disagreement about what the contract really provided. The common law recognized that in regular deal- ings between buyer and seller, or employer and employee, certain obliga- tions were assumed by common though unwritten consent. If nothing else was said, for example, the employer was assumed to have committed itself to provide safe tools and a fair warning of unusual dangers in the work- place. But the general rule was that contract was king. If they worked at it, the parties could allocate risks and responsibilities in any way they might choose.

In the eyes of the old law, then, a deal was really a deal. The rule of — caveat emptor “let the buyer beware” —prevailed, as it had in both England and America since time immemorial. But the rule would more accurately have read caveat emptor et vendor; the seller was bound by the terms of the deal too. McGee, after all, came to grief by promising more than he later delivered.

A manufacturer selling a product, an employer purchasing a service, or a doctor providing one could insist that the deal was on only if the other party agreed to bear the costs of any accident. By the same token, the buyer, the employee, or the patient could demand a guarantee of satisfaction or success before proceeding. One way or the other, agree- ments routinely did address health and safety risks.

If a baker —or equally well, as the Court sagely noted, a “printer, a tinsmith, a locksmith, a carpenter, a cabinetmaker, a dry goods clerk, a bank’s, a lawyer’s or a physician’s clerk, or a clerk in almost any kind of business” —chose to kill himself on the job, that was entirely his own affair, and his employer’s; the State of New York had no right or power to interfere.

After less than two months of research, it settled on and began to ship a mixture of diethylene glycol and water flavored with raspberry extract. The formula, never tested in animals, promptly killed 100 people. The president of the company was politely apologetic, but not much more. “My chemists and I deeply regret the fatal results,” he declared, “but there was no error in the manufacture of the product. We have been supplying legitimate professional demand, and not once could have foreseen the unlooked for results. I do not feel that there was any responsibility on our part.” And he was quite right, at least under the strictest buyer-beware principles. If users of the drug had wanted a guarantee of its safety and effectiveness, they should have demanded one before buying. No such guarantee had been provided. As it happened, the tort law for medicines was already in flux, and the families of some of the Massengill victims did have their day in court. But countless other victims of similar accidents did not. For the most part, a deal was a deal, even when it worked out appall- ingly for one side or the other.

Now we move onto the period of change:

The courts, entirely on their own initiative, soon adopted a complementary set of changes in the tort law. The new rule that eventually emerged was straightforward: If Smith said nothing to the contrary when selling food or drugs, he implicitly promised Jones that the product was fit for human use. If Smith had any reservations about that fitness, he had to spell them out expressly. In lawyers’ argot this was called an implied warranty —an unwritten promise of "fitness for intended uses.'“

The above idea was based, in part, by the fact that now that we had (or should have) better access to cleaner food and water it is a reasonable assumption to think you’re buying good product (as to I guess before it made sense to assume you would be buying product that may not be so great).

Contract was still paramount, but warnings for the first time became an integral part of the contract.

I think that makes sense. I remember Miss Rand had a similar sentiment in relation to pollution. Smog and other pollutants from fires and factory are fine because the alternative is worse. As things got better though they became less fine. It used to be assumed that most stuff wasn’t well made and risky (I guess?) and now we expect a certain level of quality and assurance of safety.

One advantage they enjoyed from the beginning was in not having to work through a refractory political process, or even to explain their reforms to the unwashed public at all. The right to sue your doctor for malpractice, for example, is not expressly provided for in any written statute; it exists only because the current crop of judges says it does. Their say-so com- mands respect because generations of judges before them have said much the same thing. Judges who want to preserve the authority of the law they make need not seek any mandate from the people. But they do have to proceed cautiously, or at least appear to, for the public legitimacy of the common law derives from its antiquity and apparent stability.

I think this is a big issue with the common law. Its created by judges rulings. People are generally made aware of the law that is created here at the highest levels (SCOTUS, though people only know about certain SCOTUS decisions), but unaware of all the law that is being created and changing all around them by judges. Changed, not by legislatures, but by judges opinions on the matter. So judges can, comparatively, quite easily change the law. Don’t do rulings that are so outrageous. So long as its not too outrageous you can change the law slowly. After all most people don’t even know what the law is, especially when it comes to tort matters.

Accidents are socially costly, they pointed out, and the law should encourage accident prevention by the most economical means. To that end, liability should fall not on the person most “at fault” in some traditional sense, but on the one who could prevent any given accident at the lowest cost. And just who might that be? Most often, those who provide goods and services, not those who consume them. Corporations, hospitals, city governments, universities, and other institutions, unlike the individual consumer they serve, are accident ex- perts. They could compile scattered accident reports and discover recurring safety problems that individual users might never suspect. They could warn consumers of likely hazards, redesign products, or keep dangerous items out of the hands of irresponsible buyers. Even when there was no immediately feasible way to eliminate a hazard, billing producers for acci- dents would spur them to search constantly for improvements in their wares. By a happy coincidence, ultrastringent producer liability would further other desirable goals as well.

I wonder if this is where the concept of holding the master liable came from (I forgot the legal term), where an employer is responsible for the torts of the employee.

In the course of the 1960s and early 1970s, judges across the country embraced the new creed, first in their hearts, then increasingly in their rulings.

This reminds me: I saw a book recommendation for this book called Schools for Misrule: Legal Academia and an Overlawyered America: Olson, Walter: 9781594032332: Amazon.com: Books

It apparently talks about how the reason the legal world is the way it is is because of legal academia. From what I know of the book it covers more modern schooling/teaching but I ~wonder. I wonder if part of the culture the judges created came from the schools they just graduated from. Probably.

Most transactions were matters of contract, and most con- tracts allocated risks in ways not approved by the Founders. The first and most important step, then, was to bury the old notion of contract.

It took roughly twenty years, from about 1960 to 1980, to rewrite the common law of accidents from beginning to end.

The courts started profitably with the subject of silence. In the old days, if the buyer and seller of a lawn mower said nothing at all about safety, the buyer took all the risk. This followed a more general principle that every term of a contract has to be expressly affirmed by both sides before it comes into existence. But it is almost as fair to decree the opposite: If a contract says nothing about safety, the parties on both sides presume the best, not the worst, and if an accident happens the seller is responsible.

But the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled for Helen nonetheless. “Under modern marketing conditions,” the court de- clared, “when a manufacturer puts a new automobile in the stream of trade and promotes its purchase by the public, an implied warranty that it is reasonably suitable for use as such accompanies it into the hands of the ultimate purchaser.”

A new general rule emerged: Courts would presume that silence on the question of safety meant that the seller of a consumer product promised the moon.

If this is not too much of an exaggeration, that’s kinda crazy. I get assuming some level of safety. I don’t get the assumption that the seller “promised the moon”.

It is curious to consider, however, what a cheap article ink is, and how far it can be made to go. Those empty spaces could be filled with more print, and they soon were. Many sellers were not at all eager to accept more liability for accidents. If the courts were going to read a no-accident guar- antee into their silence, sellers would take pains to speak up. The lawn mower contract would say, in large and conspicuous type, that the device was very dangerous, that it frequently amputated toes and fingers, and that its manufacturer had no intention whatsoever of paying the hospital bills, which surely would arrive in short order. And in the law’s unending battle of words, express disclaimers still trumped implied warranties every time. Sellers began to use them in torrents.

The objective for the reactionaries was to write disclaimers of liability that would stick. The objective for the reformers was to get over, under, or around disclaimers one way or another. It wasn’t really a balanced contest, because the reformers had by then captured the courts, and the courts always had the final word.

So the reasoning behind saying a seller promised the moon had less to do with “clear” and good logic and instead had more to do with trying to get what they wanted into law.

This death-by-painful-scrutiny method for killing contracts worked well enough for a while, but it contained the seeds of its own downfall. Each disclaimer case taught the losers another lesson, and they grew in- creasingly skilled at spelling out just what they wanted to sell (a lawn mower, say) and what they did not care to sell (an insurance contract).

So the courts turned their attention from the terms of the contract to the competence of the contracting parties. And that, without doubt, was the end.

Standardized contracts between a large corporate seller and a small con- sumer, new tort scholars and judges now declared, were not really agree- ments at all; they were mere contracts “of adhesion,” and should be dis- missed out of hand. A single frail individual could hardly hope to hold his own in a deal with a large, knowledgeable institution.

The flypaper theory of contracts was infinitely powerful. Take-it-or- leave-it contracts of course typify virtually all mass-market sales of con- sumer products and services. Used skillfully, the theory allowed judges to get rid of almost any unwanted language they chose, anywhere they might find it. Adhesion theories could transform any deal, no matter how seem- ingly consensual, into the legal equivalent of a car accident.

Oh I see. I think part of their premise went something like this: if you have a gun to your head and sign a contract you are not expected to actually follow through with that contract. You have to be free to sign up for it. I think they conflated economic power and physical power.


tldr -

Torts are what we (used to) do in cases of accidents and assaults (and similar things). It was done in cases where people did not have a pre-established relationship to handle accidents that happen between two parties. Most accidents that happened, happened between two parties that generally contractually agreed on how to handle these accidents.

Courts believed two things:

1.) The handling of the accidents was unfair. The little guy, such as an employee, got screwed over in their contracts. Big corporations (and even smaller ones at times) don’t negotiate contracts with their low-level employees. There economic power was equivalent to physical power. Therefore, the contracts were not really contracts.

2.) Related to the 1st point, courts believed that one issue with these unfair contracts was the fact that the victims had no recourse for the harms they suffered. Your big powerful boss says they take on no liability. You take the job because you have no option. You suffer an accident at the job and lose your job. You have medical bills and a loss of income. This could all be addressed if we could hold your employer liable, regardless of the liabilities we agreed to previously. Also especially with employers we will hold them liable regardless of fault. The big companies (and even small ones) can afford it.

So, generally speaking, yes. He can use. Before building on that though, the original post you were responding to was just saying that:

The courts, entirely on their own initiative, soon adopted a complementary set of changes in the tort law. The new rule that eventually emerged was straightforward: If Smith said nothing to the contrary when selling food or drugs, he implicitly promised Jones that the product was fit for human use. If Smith had any reservations about that fitness, he had to spell them out expressly. In lawyers’ argot this was called an implied warranty —an unwritten promise of "fitness for intended uses.'“

There’s more in the post I shared about chapter 2, but previously there was a strict “buyer-beware” principle. After a certain point mentioned above, there was not. Previously selling a high-risk product was fully on the buyer. After all why didn’t you ask for information on the risk and all that?

Going back to just generally what the law is though, yes he can sue. I guess the kind of risk would vary? What kind of risk do you have in mind?

A related example to how you can easily sue someone when it comes to products:

You can sue for products that are easily modifiable. I forgot to post some law notes, so I will do that soon because I think I covered this on Quimbee (I’m confusing stuff I covered there with stuff I heard from just youtube videos and audiobooks). You, as a manufacturer (and retailer and all that), need to consider the regularly possible use cases. An example is a sit-down(?) lawn mower (idk what they’re called). People will probably drive that like a car. You have to make sure it works to a reasonable extent as a car (whatever that means). And going back to the modifying point: you are liable if the lawn mower is easily modifiable. Because its easily modifiable you are liable for the damages they caused to themselves due to the mods.

Yes. I feel like Miss Rand talked about this somewhere. Can’t find it though. It also could’ve been one of her associates. I feel like there is some objectivist literature out there where this is talked about.

From Strict liability - Wikipedia :

In criminal and civil law, strict liability is a standard of liability under which a person is legally responsible for the consequences flowing from an activity even in the absence of fault or criminal intent on the part of the defendant.[1]

Under the strict liability law, if the defendant possesses anything that is inherently dangerous, as specified under the “ultrahazardous” definition, the defendant is then strictly liable for any damages caused by such possession, no matter how carefully the defendant is safeguarding them.[2]

In the field of torts, prominent examples of strict liability may include product liability, abnormally dangerous activities (e.g., blasting), intrusion onto another’s land by livestock, and ownership of wild animals.[3 ]

So I don’t know actually there. But an example in a different context:

Mmm. Having trouble finding the video. I can look for it if wanted. but pretty much a lawyer on youtube talks about an accident caused by:

1.) the first car in a line-up backing up

2.) the second car proceeding to back-up into a third car behind them

3.) the third car is damaged

The way he said for everyone to recover was:

1.) The second car is liable to the third car. Third car needs to file suit against the second car. Thats one lawsuit.

2.) Second car though can recover for his lawsuit damages (I could be wrong on this part) to car three by suing car one. Two lawsuits.

~I agree. I think the idea goes two ways:

1.) Manufacturers are assumed to have lots of money, especially compared to the damaged parties. It happened because of them. They can afford to pay up. They pay up. They are more or less still fine and the damaged party is made whole again.

2.) This is something I feel like I got from Rand or some material similar: you are making money, so we hold you more liable because of the reasoning of why you’re doing what you’re doing. Making profits off of suffering? Thats bad. We don’t want that.

Maybe? Idk. I think a big thing is the whole idea of just making companies liable because they can afford the costs of liability/afford the costs of helping damaged people.

Yes. I’m going to try and read some court opinions for some of the stuff I covered soon, so I can share stuff from the courts own mouth. However, companies are held strictly liable. An additional detail to add here: companies are rich, smart, powerful, etc. By holding them liable they can invest their riches and smart people into creating products with no faults.

Also by holding them strictly liable we’ll get only good safe products. No icky dangerous products on the market. Isn’t that better?

Oh yeah: they did do something “wrong”, they didn’t use their riches and smarts well enough to create a good enough product and now the little guy is hurting.

This is sort of like an insurance scheme. All the customers pay a bit higher prices, then the manufacturer takes that money and pays it out in lawsuits to the few customers who get harmed by bad luck.

First impression: I think people actually just buying accident insurance would make more sense than building this into the legal system.

From what Liability is saying, thats 100% what it is and what the intention is. Idk yet if the court opinions were that direct about it though.

This is not from Liability directly, but I wanted to read the court opinion on the case that established strict liability.

Greenman v. Yuba Power Products, Inc.

WILLIAM B. GREENMAN, Plaintiff and Appellant, v. YUBA POWER PRODUCTS, INC., Defendant and Appellant; THE HAYSEED, Defendant and Respondent.

Greenman - Plaintiff, damaged party

Yube Power Prodicts, Inc. - Defendant, damaging party

Hayseed - Codefendant(?), damaging party(?)

TRAYNOR, J.

Plaintiff brought this action for damages against the retailer and the manufacturer of a Shopsmith, a combination power tool that could be used as a saw, drill, and wood lathe. He saw a Shopsmith demonstrated by the retailer and studied a brochure prepared by the manufacturer. He decided he wanted a Shopsmith for his home workshop, and his wife bought and gave him one for Christmas in 1955. In 1957 he bought the necessary attachments to use the Shopsmith as a lathe for turning a large piece of wood he wished to make into a chalice. After he had worked on the piece of wood several times without difficulty, it suddenly flew out of the machine and struck him on the forehead, inflicting serious injuries. About 10 1/2 months later, he gave the retailer and the manufacturer written notice of claimed breaches of warranties and filed a complaint against them alleging such breaches and negligence.

;o, Traynor J. Neat. He’s one of the judges Liability mentions when it came to all this tort stuff changing up.

So Greenman is suing the retailer (seller) and manufacturer (maker) of a tool called the Shopsmith.

Shopsmith can be used as a saw, a drill, and a wood lathe. The heck is a wood lathe? (from Gemini):

A wood lathe is a power tool that rotates a workpiece of wood between two centers, called the headstock and tailstock, allowing a stationary cutting tool to shape it into round or cylindrical forms like bowls, pens, or spindles. It’s used to create hollowed-out items or pieces with curved designs by using various chisels like gouges and scrapers to remove material as the wood spins.

Ok that makes sense for turning a piece of wood into a chalice.

So the wood flew out of the machine and harmed him. Ok.

This harm constituted a breach of warranty? Gemini:

A breach of warranty is a legal claim that arises when a seller or manufacturer fails to meet the promises or guarantees made about a product’s quality, performance, or safety. This failure, whether for an express warranty (a stated promise) or an implied warranty (an unstated guarantee of quality or fitness), results in damages for the buyer. Remedies for a breach of warranty can include repairs, replacements, refunds, or monetary compensation for losses incurred.

Ok. So he got injured using a machine. That injury came about because the seller/manufacturer failed at meeting the promises made about the safety of the machine.

After a trial before a jury, the court ruled that there was no evidence that the retailer was negligent or had breached any express warranty and that the manufacturer was not liable for the breach of any implied warranty. Accordingly, it submitted to the jury only the cause of action alleging breach of implied warranties against the retailer and the causes of action alleging negligence and breach of express warranties against the manufacturer. The jury returned a verdict for the retailer against plaintiff and for plaintiff against the manufacturer in the amount of $65,000. The trial court denied the manufacturer’s motion for a new trial and [59 Cal. 2d 60] entered judgment on the verdict. The manufacturer and plaintiff appeal.plaintiff seeks a reversal of the part of the judgment in favor of the retailer, however, only in the event that the part of the judgment against the manufacturer is reversed.

So the court ruled that:

  • no evidence that the retailer was negligent. ok.
  • retailer had not breached any express (written/stated) warranty. ok.
  • manufacturer was not liable for the breach of any implied warranty. ok.

So retailer could be held liable for breaches of implied warranty? Manufacturer could be liable for breach of an express warranty? Manufacturer could be liable for negligence?

Yes. The causes of actions for the above were submitted to the jury.

A verdict was won for retailer against plaintiff.

A verdict was won for plaintiff against manufacturer for $65,000.

Manufacturer was denied a new trial. According to Gemini [59 Cal. 2d 60] refers to:

The bracketed notation [59 Cal. 2d 60] is a legal citation that refers to a specific court opinion.

Breakdown of the citation

  • 59: This is the volume number of the case reporter where the opinion was published.

  • Cal. 2d: This is the abbreviation for the California Reports, Second Series, which contains the official opinions of the California Supreme Court.

  • 60: This is the page number where the opinion begins within that volume.

Therefore, the notation [59 Cal. 2d 60] directs a reader to find the full text of that particular legal opinion in Volume 59 of the California Reports, Second Series, starting on page 60.

These citations are used in legal documents to reference the precedent set by past court decisions.

Ok. Tried to verify this, but it seems like this would be a pointless rabbit hole. Regardless it seems like the trial court cited something to enter a judgement on the given verdicts.

Manufacturer and plaintiff appealed. Manufacturer presumably wants appeal on their verdict. Plaintiff is seeking appeal on the verdict favoring the retailer against plaintiff only if some of the judgement against the manufacturer is reversed on appeal.


Imma stop here for now.

Greenman v. Yuba Power Products, Inc. continued

Plaintiff introduced substantial evidence that his injuries were caused by defective design and construction of the Shopsmith. His expert witnesses testified that inadequate set screws were used to hold parts of the machine together so that normal vibration caused the tailstock of the lathe to move away from the piece of wood being turned permitting it to fly out of the lathe. They also testified that there were other more positive ways of fastening the parts of the machine together, the use of which would have prevented the accident. The jury could therefore reasonably have concluded that the manufacturer negligently constructed the Shopsmith. The jury could also reasonably have concluded that statements in the manufacturer’s brochure were untrue, that they constituted express warranties, fn. 1 and that plaintiff’s injuries were caused by their breach.

The screws used to hold parts of the machine together were inadequate. The inadequate screws with a whole bunch of other factors lead to the wood flying out of the lathe.

The machine could have been put together better to prevent the accident (but are those better set-up’s accident free? Or just free from this one accident?)

Jury had good reason to conclude negligent construction and that express warranties were untrue. Mmm. I can see that. Defective construction = negligence, defective design = breach of an express warranty.

The manufacturer contends, however, that plaintiff did not give it notice of breach of warranty within a reasonable time and that therefore his cause of action for breach of warranty is barred by section 1769 of the Civil Code. Since it cannot be determined whether the verdict against it was based on the negligence or warranty cause of action or both, the manufacturer concludes that the error in presenting the warranty cause of action to the jury was prejudicial.

Breach of warranty has to be given within a certain time period. This was reported outside of that time period. The breach of warranty claim is, therefore, invalid.

The verdict is not clear on whether it ruled that way because of negligence or warranty cause of action. Ok.

Since the warranty cause of action is, apparently, illegal it was prejudicial to show that to the jury.

Section 1769 of the Civil Code provides: “In the absence of express or implied agreement of the parties, acceptance of the goods by the buyer shall not discharge the seller from liability in damages or other legal remedy for breach of any promise or warranty in the contract to sell or the sale. But, if, after acceptance of the goods, the buyer fails to give notice to the seller of the breach of any promise or warranty within a reasonable time after the buyer knows, or ought to know of such breach, the seller shall not be liable therefor.”

What is a reasonable time?

[1] Like other provisions of the Uniform Sales Act (Civ. [59 Cal. 2d 61] Code, §§ 1721-1800), section 1769 deals with the rights of the parties to a contract of sale or a sale. It does not provide that notice must be given of the breach of a warranty that arises independently of a contract of sale between the parties. [2] Such warranties are not imposed by the sales act, but are the product of common-law decisions that have recognized them in a variety of situations. (See Gagne v. Bertran, 43 Cal. 2d 481, 486-487 [275 P.2d 15], and authorities cited; Peterson v. Lamb Rubber Co., 54 Cal. 2d 339, 348 [5 Cal. Rptr. 863, 353 P.2d 575]; Klein v. Duchess Sandwich Co., Ltd., 14 Cal. 2d 272, 276-283 [93 P.2d 799]; Burr v. Sherwin Williams Co., 42 Cal. 2d 682, 695-696 [268 P.2d 1041]; Souza & McCue Constr. Co., Inc. v. Superior Court, 57 Cal. 2d 508, 510-511 [20 Cal. Rptr. 634, 370 P.2d 338].) It is true that in many of these situations the court has invoked the sales act definitions of warranties (Civ. Code, §§ 1732, 1735) in defining the defendant’s liability, but it has done so, not because the statutes so required, but because they provided appropriate standards for the court to adopt under the circumstances presented. (See Clinkscales v. Carver, 22 Cal. 2d 72, 75 [136 P.2d 777]; Dana v. Sutton Motor Sales, 56 Cal. 2d 284, 287 [14 Cal. Rptr. 649, 363 P.2d 881].)

Is it reasonable to remove citations in cases like this and put something like a … there? Makes it easier to read and I don’t think most people who choose to read along with this care much about the citations. Could be wrong tho.

I think I’ve seen people to do similar things (not with citations but with long text that their quoting and stuff).

Anyways. So [1] is saying that: section 1769 deals with the rights of the people around sales. It does not say anything about giving notice of a breach of warranty that comes independently from the sale between the two parties. Really?

Section 1769 says:

But, if, after acceptance of the goods, the buyer fails to give notice to the seller of the breach of any promise or warranty within a reasonable time after the buyer knows, or ought to know of such breach, the seller shall not be liable therefor.

I don’t know if my focus on the independent part is correct here. Only way I’m understand [1] here is through [2] which says that warranty is more of a common law thing than a statute thing. This makes me think the point is that something like reasonable time is determined by common law than statute.


Stopping here for today.

One problem with this insurance scheme is lawyers take ~half the money. And it costs taxpayers a bunch of money paying for the courtroom and judge. And it costs jurors (or their employers). Also customers who suffer smaller harms don’t sue because suing is such a big deal.

Also it’s hard for companies to predict how much money the lawsuits will cost them. This seems even harder than an insurance company figuring out what to charge and how much they’ll have to pay out in the future. And lots of random companies have to do it, including small companies, instead of just specialists trying to do this math. And insurance companies voluntarily went into the business of trying to figure this stuff out, while another company might just want to sell one product they came up with, not deal with this other stuff.

~yeah. I don’t know if the legal scholars coming up with this “revolution” thought of that much. I think they expected companies to “somehow” make things better. Sure the first few people would be suffering but as costs added up companies will make such good products that lawyers are no longer necessary because we’re safer.

Another thing that comes to mind is I think that the costs are new. I wonder if litigation has always been so expensive, but it definitely is now and getting more expensive. I think around the time this all started happening litigation was a “chiller” process. As companies became more and more liable though things changed. Costlier things are added from getting experts involved, court costs (some is tax payer, but some is not like filing fees, court reporter fees), and probably other things. More “sophisticated” defense tactics and prolonging cases probably increased costs as companies tried to avoid liability.

The point being I don’t know if tort reformers thought this whole expensive legal complex would come out of it. They probably thought, at best, a client would lose a little bit of money for attorneys fees.

Actually you shared at The Injustice of Strictly and Literally Making Victims Whole, Such as All Children - #10 by Elliot :

I have a low opinion of the current system where many civil cases are very expensive in terms of lawyer bills.

Do you think lawyers cost too much or the process costs too much? I think both are true, though I don’t know how you’re thinking of them. I know “low” rates for lawyers can be like a few hundred a hour. That sucks, especially with how necessary they are, But I think when we’re talking about lawyers taking like half the money, it should be pointed out that everything about litigation is expensive. Now I’m sure some (or many) lawyers are complicit in the system and costs, but all the crazy high legal costs are taken on by attorneys and they could just lose all that money if they don’t recover. I wonder if this has lead to lawyers pursuing some less true claims to recover more for their client and themselves.

I don’t know if you were outright criticizing the practice of contingency or just pointing out how contingency doesn’t really make sense with the insurance scheme. Its like having a policy where you’ll get $5000 but the insurance companies takes half in processing fees.

I think its harder than that actually. Juries (if it gets there) are the ones determining the pay out based off all the information given. Just random people off the street given some evidence and some legal guidelines to determine the payout for an insurance policy. Also chapter three (which I’ll post about soon) I think starts covering the difficulty of figuring all this out:

The judges who had sentenced and executed the law of contract had not one head to replace, but a million. Every sale of a car, toaster, or cigarette lighter, every hookup of an electric or gas customer, every ticket for an ocean cruise or roller coaster ride, every college admission, hotel room rental, or tonsillectomy, is based on contract. The old law depended on buyer and seller to decide privately beforehand who would pay for what if an accident befell. When the courts abandoned contract, they left a cavernous void that had to be refilled, bucket by bucket, with a new set of public standards, rights, and responsibilities.

When this realization dawned, it came as something of a letdown in legal
circles.