Good point!
I did not ballpark out the numbers really, and trillions (I did consider putting in a tr?) intuitively felt like an exaggeration. But I wasn’t fully considering the negotiation of trying to buy licensing for people’s public posts on social media or any stuff like that. I was just thinking about the concrete texts that already have price tags associated with access, like books and papers. I think your breakdown makes sense.
That makes sense owning those words is diffetent than owning the right to that novel. It’s just like owning that specific code is different than owing the rights to the game.
Oh i think i see but I cant sell your novel. I cant sell a copy of your novel.
It sounds really hard to use the author’s writing style and make a copy of his novel. Like you’ll have to remember a lot of the same details that it becomes something different. Idk if you jus copy the same main plot points or character that it becomes illegal to sell.
Idk if selling was the right thing to talk about. Like the topic
You know how Elon felt? And why do you assert it was a nazi salute rather than an unintended resemblance?
“Felt comfortable doing X” is a turn of phrase that normally means “someone chose to do X and did not show any particular hesitation or express regret afterwards” — it isn’t intended as a literal commentary on his feelings.
I assert it was a nazi salute because it looked like a nazi salute. The idea that it was just an accidental resemblance seems unlikely given he did the same salute twice in a row, for both halves of the auditorium, to make sure everyone saw it.
Additionally, afterwards when there was criticism, he never said anything remotely like “oh shit my bad I didn’t mean for that to look like a nazi salute!”
Instead, he said things like:
“The ‘everyone is Hitler’ attack is sooo tired.”
Except nobody said everyone was Hitler, they said his salute looked like a nazi sieg heil salute. Because it did.
Then he did things like laugh and make jokes about it, make lots of nazi puns on twitter, roll his eyes and say it is old and tired for people to call him a nazi. But he never in any way disavowed that interpretation.
Here is a summary of some of the things he said:
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/23/nx-s1-5269719/elon-musk-salute-inauguration-day-nazis
His lack of disavowal is important. The modern nazi alt right thrives on winks and nudges and obvious but just barely deniable symbolism.
Note: I never even said Elon Musk was a nazi. I just said he did a nazi salute. I think there is lots of evidence that he did one, and conspicuously there is no evidence at all that he did not. I just made an argument that he did one, and he himself did not even bother offering any argument that he did not.
So I’m comfortable sticking to my interpretation. He may not be a nazi though, he may just think it is very funny to wink at nazis and upset people who dislike nazis. That’s plausible.
Quoting myself to add: this is important beyond just Elon Musk and the nazi salute.
This is generally a thing that key figures in the right do very well right now… they signal to extremists and then never really disavow those signals, and let other people run interference for them.
Pundits defended Elon and said it was not a nazi salute, that he is just autistic and flailed randomly in a way that looked identical to a nazi salute, etc.
This is kinda similar to how in 2020 Trump was asked to disavow white nationalists and right wing extremist terrorist groups like the Proud Boys, and tell them to stand down. Instead he told them to “stand back and stand by.”
Pundits defended this as a misspeak. And they would then claim Trump was reasonable and did as he was asked . But a leader of the Proud Boys tweeted “Standing by, sir.” They did not interpret it as a misspeak telling them to chill out and stand down. They interpreted it as orders to stand by and wait for further instructions, and they did, and then when he called for them to do so they facilitated an insurrection and helped with his attempted coup.
Elon Musk’s actions are similar in a way. He conspicuously did not disavow, so nazis can see that he is on their side and he does not alienate them. But he laughed and joked, and pundits made excuses for him. Mainstream non-nazi Republicans accepted those excuses.
This way right wing figures can simultaneously signal a friendly demeanor to their most extremist fringe elements, and also get their image sanitized and whitewashed for the more mainstream right wing audience.
I looked it up and asked AI and it looks like you’re wrong about what it normally means. “Felt comfortable doing X” is a literal commentary on feelings—dictionaries define “comfortable” as free from stress, anxiety, or doubt. The lack of hesitation or regret is a byproduct of that internal ease, not the core meaning.
Repeating it twice doesn’t make it sinister; it could just ensure the crowd on both sides saw his heartfelt gesture, as he literally said “My heart goes out to you” while doing it. Besides, the definition of a Nazi salute is not “any straight arm raised above shoulder height,” but the context, intet, and symbolic meaning.
i think you’re assumng his lack of explicit apology signals intent. But people often refuse to dignify accusations they see as absurd. Musk’s dismissive tone could be read as “this is too ridiculous to warrant rebuttal.” It could be proof of disdain for the accusation. Again, he did clarify intent. He described it as “moving my hand from my heart to the audience” while saying “my heart goes out to you,” framing the backlash as a media “deception” and “insanely hard” cancel attempt.
Can you think of some other reasons he might have said that?
I don’t necessarily agree with his approach but trolling and using humor as deflection doesn;t equal endorsement. Especially when he also rejected the nazi salute framing.
He personally pushed back by clarifying the intent and mocking the critics. Public false accusations, especially if you’re being accused of Nazi symbolism, is tough to navigate. There’s a social aspect to it too. What would you suggest and why? And could you see problems that might come up if Elon disavowed in the exact way you think he should have (if you assume he wasn’t trying to give a nazi salute)?
This reminds me of Elliot’s “No Evidence” article Curiosity – "No" Evidence . Highly recommend reading it if you haven’t already, it’s a banger. You saying there’s no clearly visible evidence could point to some biases/tribalism.
It sounds like your results were muddied by the usage of “feel comfortable” in first person. If you are talking about whether or not you feel comfortable with something, that is a different context than describing someone else apparently feeling comfortable with something.
It doesn’t necessarily make it sinister, but it does make it intentional.
For example, can we agree that him doing the same gesture twice damages the “it was awkward autistic flailing” defense some people made on Elon’s behalf?
I would agree that doing it twice does not necessarily damage the “it means my heart goes out to you” defense. I think the bigger problem with that defense is that nazi salutes are not normally associated with saying “my heart goes out to you.”
as he literally said “My heart goes out to you” while doing it
Actually, he literally did not do that. He said “thank you”, then did two nazi salutes, and then after finishing the second nazi salute he put his hand over his chest and said “my heart goes out to you.”
FYI, putting your hand over your heart is a pretty common physical gesture associated with the phrase “my heart goes out to you” — unlike nazi salutes, which are not.
Sure, it could. But that is not an argument, right? So if there is an actual argument on the other side, he’s not making any effort to provide a counterargument.
Yes, framing all comparisons between MAGA and nazis or fascists as absurd over-the-top Hitler analogies is one effective way that many MAGA politicians and influencers deflect criticisms of their fascist and nazi policies/beliefs.
Also, less evil and less informed MAGA-friendly people don’t like such analogies much either, and if Elon was one of them he might say this too. It feels too extreme. People in the US like to imagine that the political landscape is a roughly fair roughly even toss-up between left and right, and they are often resistant to assertions that one side is way way worse/way more unhinged. They are somewhat forgiving if the assertion is targeted to a niche category that can be framed as extremist. But Americans are really resistant to the idea that e.g. 40% of the country or whatever are being tolerant or friendly towards fascism.
I would suggest making it clear that I did not intend a nazi salute and I disavow nazis. Because nazis are really really bad and making jokes that signal you don’t take them very seriously and think it is funny to pretend to be one are not good.
Yeah I can definitely see problems that could come up there. He would lose the support of the nazi and nazi-friendly and nazi-leaning elements of the right wing base.
But I know that’s not what you meant.
More to your point perhaps: He would also lose some support from the mainstream right wing base that thinks any capitulation to left wing critiques is weak cucking out. He would lose support from the mainstream right wing base that believes they get called nazis and fascists and domestic terrorists unfairly, and have begun to wear all of those labels as a badge of honor instead.
It’s a big problem. I think those attitudes are a big part of why nazis are so comfortable now and have begun to get increasingly open and explicit. So I am still not in favor of Elon courting them by doubling down. But I understand why he would do it… it’s scary to alienate a group like MAGA. Plus, he doesn’t want to. He agrees with them.
It is worth pointing out that immediately after I mentioned the lack of evidence, I also mentioned the lack of arguments. If Elon had made any actual argument about why it wasn’t a nazi salute, that would be important and worth considering.
Saying “Felt comfortable doing X” is still literal. The phrase means he experienced ease or lack of anxiety. The only difference is that in third person we don’t have direct access to his feelings, so we infer them from his behavior.
I can imagine it damaging the flailing argument but not necessarily the argument that something autistic is involved. I’m not an expert on autism though.
Yeah, one can argue that’s why it wasn’t a nazi salute…
Do you concede that there is evidence? Also, with just a quick search Elon explained the gesture as a “heart goes out” motion (hand to chest, then extend), called Nazi claims a “hoax” and “propaganda,” and on Rogan rejected him being a Nazi. I’d bet there’s more too. Is that not important and worth considering?
Yeah, and it might not even be about losing support. There’s this social idea now that any kind of serious acknowledgement of accusations being thrown at you is submission to the mob, and dangerous.
And i don’t know if they are imagining the harm or whether there’s truth to it. But, if there’s truth to it, even if you don’t agree with the social game/rules, there’s pressure to do it. It’s like law of least effort or demonstrating higher value in dating. I think a lot of the social games are cringe, but if you want to be succcesful at dating, you’re better off following common social rules.
Even if there’s no truth to “acknowledging the mob is dangerous”, if people believe it, they’ll live by it.
Correct. So we don’t need to know how they felt, we can just infer it from their behavior. I think that’s consistent with what I said and contradicts your original objection to what I said.
I’m not sure this line of argument is particularly useful. If you think there is a compelling reason to continue it, let me know.
Can you? How so?
He did a correct “heart goes out to you gesture” later, when he actually used that phrase. The salute occurred when he talked about how important this election was and thanked the crowd for electing Trump. Saluting people or a cause is one way to signal a big thanks to that cause during a public event.
Sure, I am not sure it is worth arguing about evidence, I think the lack of argument is more important.
Also note that lots of those objections actually do not address it being a nazi salute at all. Elon did spend some effort rejecting the idea that he is a nazi, but that’s not the main claim anyway. The claim is that he did a nazi salute.
He could not be a nazi but still do a nazi salute, because it is edgy and he thinks it is funny and based. Or for other reasons.
Because, like you said, Nazi salutes aren’t normally associated with “my heart goes out to you.” So, with that context, one could decide that Elon didn’t do a nazi salute.
Maybe lots of them don’t, but he did explain what he was doing.
Yeah, those are all possible. Certain claims when it comes to these social political topics dip into unfalsifiable when you exam them though. If he says it’s not a nazi salute, he’s lying. If he says it is a nazi salute, he’s lying to troll the libs. Not saying your claims are like that, but I bet it’s extrordinarily common in society.
It looks to me like @Neo and @anonymous105 disagree about more than the salute issue. E.g. they may disagree about whether the MAGA movement or current administration is mostly good or bad. I think the salute issue isn’t isolated and some other ideas are affecting how they each interpret it. So, if they both are interested in a longer political discussion, stating their broader political views and checking where they agree and disagree might be more productive than focusing narrowly on the salute debate.
I actually think the MAGA movement and the current administration is mostly bad. My guess is @anonymous105 and I would agree on that. Maybe we’d disagree on whether the left is mostly good or mostly bad though? I think they’re mostly bad too.
I also might disagree with you Elliot about how involved one should be with current politics? I think people should be more involved. Analyzing news or policies can also be a good way to practice abstract philosophical concepts like error correction (if done the right way). Kind of like one of your videos a few years ago where you showed how to practice error correction by analyzing a twitter page that shows different machine creations.
Yes.
Maybe.
Kind of.
I don’t think the left is particularly great in any sort of objective sense. But I do think that the right, especially MAGA, is particularly and unusually bad right now. I am tempted to even say uniquely bad, but that is probably hyperbole. But I think you have to go pretty far back in US history to find a popular movement that is more evil.
So, for example, in an election I would vote for any mainstream Democrat (or even a semi-radical one) over any MAGA-friendly Republican with little hesitation. In a comparison, the Democrats do look mostly good. But I dunno if that actually makes them mostly good. And like, I might not be happy about that vote.
Until a few years ago I considered the left worse than the right. I think I was badly mistaken. I generally find it kind of annoying how much the leftist warnings about Trump have turned out to be correct in his second term, since they were largely wrong in his first term. And the extent to which mainstream Republicans support Trump & MAGA makes me highly skeptical of basically all of the right.
So at a guess, our biggest disagreement is around this area. I think that a lot of centrist types who say “both parties are bad” are running cover for an especially evil and destructive movement.
–
Just to add some more context: I am also currently in the process of revising many of my ideas. While the biggest factor is how destructive and evil MAGA and Trump are, there are also ways that I used to think the left was worse than the right that I am now questioning.
A reductive summary of my previous view is something like: the left broadly has good intentions but bad understanding of reality, so they try to help people but cause bad unintended side effects and often leave things worse off for the people they try to help than if they had not tried to help. The right is a bit more callous, but they have better arguments and a better understanding of reality, so their actions will help more people. Even when I had this view, I carved out a lot of exceptions, especially around social policies, since social/religious conservatism seemed bad to me even then.
I no longer think that view is correct. MAGA is way worse at understanding reality. The right in general is, at best, just kinda comparable to the left. So what then?
A concrete example: I still think capitalism and free markets are good. But considering that Trump has been the most anti-free-market president in my lifetime by a wide margin, and still has widespread support by Republicans, I don’t really see how I can believe the right when they say they like free markets. Even when Trump is gone, should I believe that they actually do like free markets again next time? Probably not.
So if nobody is seeking a free market, and everyone wants an unfair system, then my choice is between:
A group (the Left) that has empathy and cares about people and wants to help them and doesn’t do a very good job of doing so in an efficient manner. They see a lopsided power dynamic and tend to try to help the underdog.
A group (the Right) that is more callous and does not want to help people much, is more concerned with punishing those it sees as bad actors. They see a lopsided power dynamic and tend to try to help the dominant power.
In that dynamic I am inclined to lean more left. So maybe as my views revise, I will shift further that way. I don’t know.
Editing in a more concrete example: In principle, I don’t know if I want government welfare stuff to exist. But in a reality where the system is not fair and free and many people get unfairly fucked over, I think that unprincipled inefficient government welfare can save real people in the real world from experiencing unfair hardship. So that’s good. Anyone who wants to dismantle welfare before fixing the systems in place is doing something bad and not in line with my values. The order in which stuff happens matters.
Ah. Maybe there’s a disagreement about Musk then? Issues like: Is he a great businessman? Is he running Telsa, SpaceX, X and (formerly) DOGE well? Which Atlas Shrugged character is he most similar to?
Another potential issue is news sources. You guys may be getting information from different sources, which contradict each other, which leads to downstream disagreements.
Maybe, those are plausible. But also if @Neo thinks both sides are equally bad and things would be roughly the same if e.g. Kamala Harris won in 2024, or similarly bad but with some details changed, then I actually do think that could be the big disagreement between us.
I would totally disagree with that assessment.
Why should you? Being involved, to me, means stuff like advocacy, political debating, (maybe) protesting, etc.
I think there could be analysis of political events that are beneficial for practicing philosophy separate from actively participating in it. I think this thread can play a role in it. Its for talking about politics non-tribally here. I think to involve yourself in most politics today you’d have to join a tribe.
If you think Paths Forward is important, how do you measure the importance of pushing Paths Forward against engaging in political activism?
I would use stronger language. I don’t think the left is good.
Yeah, especially the current administration.
I’d have to be given specific examples to determine what I would do. A semi-radical dem feels like a red flag.
I think i get what you mean. The centrists that almost feel like moral relativists? I agree with that. There’s a good way to go about it, where you can still argue that both parties are bad though.
I agree.
I don’t vibe with this part. Even if you’re referring to the two main political groups, I don’t think it’s fair to reduces complex platforms to these stereotypes. I think it reinforces tribal divisions.
I agree. I’m for piecemeal changes in the right order, and error correction if we find out the order is wrong.
I wouldn’t find that a very interesting debate to have, because I don’t like to prophesy. I also don’t want to gives off Captain Hindsight from South Park vibes lol. But, gun to my head, my guess is Kamala wouldn’t have been as bad in as many ways.