All large groups have lots of flaws.
~yeah thatās fair. I think the mistake Iām making here is that because a lot more Republican/right-leaning/conservative/whatever flaws are being discussed more as compared to Democrat/left-leaning/liberal/whatever flaws. I think part of me is starting to think that Democrats/liberals are good. Not better than Republican/conservatives, but actually good and that bothers me. Not because they have to be bad in my head, but because Iām getting a vague feeling they they are actually good without addressing all the problems they have/I think they have.
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One thing that may be worth considering is context. So e.g. in the context of philosophically examining arguments, maybe neither of them are good, so this concern of yours is a good one to keep in mind. But it could also be true that in the context of political action in the world, one of them might actually be good.
I think this is because how good a choice is may change based on the available options. It could be that all of your options are so bad that basically they all suck and your situation is fucked and it would be wrong to call any of them good. e.g. maybe you have to choose between cutting off your hands and feet, or letting someone murder all of your friends and family.
But a lot of decisions arenāt like that. You may not always have access to your preferred choice. You may have criticisms of all available choices. But you may still need to choose anyway, and then it could make sense to consider the best option good. Not just better than the alternatives, but good, becauseā¦ well, it is the best option you have.
e.g. maybe you rank foods like this (best to worst)
- Thai curry
- Indian curry
- Sushi
- Shawarma
- Korean bbq
- American bbq
- Fried chicken
- Hot dogs
- Nepali momos
- Ethiopian curry
- Pizza
Then we skip ahead a bunch of food options and we get to the bottom of your list
- Burgers
- Deli sandwiches
- Burritos
And one day you are out somewhere and you need to get food, and there are four options that are within your distance/price budget: Burritos, Burgers, Deli sandwiches, and Pizza. What do you do?
Is Pizza your favorite? Nah, itās not even in your top 10! But you like it fine. You donāt hate it. The other three options are your least favorite foods ever. So you get pizza, obviously.
Was pizza the best option? Yeah. Was pizza a good option? Also yeah, I think so. You had to eat something. Eating nothing at all would probably be worse than even your most hated foods (maybe not for one meal, which you could skip, but you get what I mean. just pretend these are your options for a week or something.)
Politics is a bit tricky because it can be engaged with in multiple different ways. You can examine the arguments intellectually and be generally dispassionate/uninvolved. That can be fine, but at the same time, politics also does tangibly impact the world in massive ways. And e.g. when you vote or support a particular candidate/party, you are doing that in the real world, not just intellectually as a thought experiment.
So it could be that the best option from the ones that are actually available to you is still flawed. Itās not in your top 10. But it might still be good anyway.
At this point the question then becomes: is this more of a ācut off hands and feet vs. all my loved ones dieā scenario, or is it more of a āpick my not-favorite food vs. pick my most hated foodā scenario? Sometimes, even the best political option might suck so much you cannot in good conscience really support it, and youāre better off just disengaging or fleeing the country or something.
But a lot of times, the best option could actually be considered good in the context of your available choices.
Just to add onto my comment with some disclosures of my personal beliefs:
I used to think the Republicans were good in practical terms, in the way Iām talking about in the above post. I had a lot of disagreements with the Republican party and most high profile Republicans. But I thought they were overall better, a net positive for the country. Within the context of a two party political system where someone is gonna win and govern, they were good.
I no longer think that. I now think roughly the same thing of the Democrats. I have huge issues with them, disagree with many high profile Democrats on many topics, and generally think their quality of argument is poor. But I think they are good in the context of the political system. I think theyāll do more overall good stuff, and be more of a net positive than the Republicans. I think the difference is meaningful; they are not just both equally terrible in my view.
But it is also worth mentioning: did my estimation of Democrats and the left go up? Eh. Yeah, maybe in some specific cases where I changed my mind. But that is not the primary thing that happened. Mainly, my view of Republicans went way way way down. The fact that I think I should basically vote party-line Democrat for the foreseeable future is a bummer to me. Itās a sign things have gotten really bad.
I do think this is concerning. Even if you decide one tribe is overall better and might be good in practical terms, you should not simply follow the tribe for your broad positions. That is pretty risky. I think it was pretty easy to tell that the right was always wrong and mean on LGBT issues; in the past I just thought that those issues were settled and not important on the national political stage. I thought Republicans had (wisely) conceded on those issues. I was very very wrong, of course.
But if you thought the Republicans were right on those issues, then it might be good to ask yourself why. Was it just because you thought they were better overall so they must be right? Was there some specific argument that persuaded you?
An important aspect of being non-tribal, especially if one tribe seems better overall, is not letting yourself be pressured into agreeing with that tribe about everything.
i forgot about this. ill reply to the other stuff soon but i wanted to comment on why I thought Republicans were good (I thought about for a few days after reading this).
i grew up liberal (kinda) became conservative. idk if i ever felt like i explicitly approached it tribally (though do most people?). i just got easily convinced about stuff.
i will say one reason i agreed with republicans with issues like trans is because theyāre more or less the ones who introduced me to the issue and framed it for me. (american) politics were never a big part of my parents lives. why i said i kinda grew up liberal. i remember agreeing with liberal stuff in like elementary/middle school from minor political discussioms in class, but i never gave it much thought. when i started getting into politics because of stuff like gamergate and all that, republicans started introducing me to political issues and talking points.
Iād say ive been pretty passive in my approach to politics for most of my life.
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What made politics appealing or interesting but without you wanting to approach it more actively?