Immigration; Asmongold; Politics

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105 you asked before about why I had been becoming more anti-trump. The campaign against Thomas Massie is an example of things I don’t like (deeply, in this case). Trump and Vance lied about him, slandered him, ran AI ads against him, and now AFAIK he’s out (KY-04 primary) and can’t even run as an independent (‘sore loser’ state law or something). I don’t know that much about Massie besides that he had values, at least some of which I agree with, and would work with democrats to achieve them. Those are both good things (values and bipartisanship).

I only found out that he might lose his primary yesterday via

They Are Spending Millions To Stop Him

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I only found out that he might lose his primary yesterday via

Yeah he lost.

Would you say this is a very representative/important example of why your view of Trump has changed? Or more just a kinda random topical example due to it just happening?

I listed a bunch of issues in the other thread and the only one you weren’t aware of was Trump wanting to execute his political opponents.

Do you feel like any of the issues I mentioned are a big problem to you, or nah?

[anonymous45]

Asmongold video on it (like 10 min old), posting it in part for archival with comments.

They bought his seat in Congress..

Will reply properly too just wanted to get the early comments.

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

Would you say this is a very representative/important example of why your view of Trump has changed? Or more just a kinda random topical example due to it just happening?

It’s topical but also I think it’s indicative of trump being like just another politician, ie playing political games regardless of principles, lying in campaign promises (like is this draining the swamp?), self-serving, etc.

@anonymous105

I listed a bunch of issues in the other thread and the only one you weren’t aware of was Trump wanting to execute his political opponents.

Do you feel like any of the issues I mentioned are a big problem to you, or nah?

@anonymous105

suspension of due process, disregarding the Constitution and the rule of law, executing political opposition, illegal taxation, and a huge list of other authoritarian abuses.

Yeah those are all, in principle, an issue for me. Executing political opposition was the most egregious. The others I don’t know for sure but have to guess (guesses: deportations and related, maybe search and seizure related to ICE but not sure, the death penalty for sedition tweets, maybe tariffs?)

Partly I didn’t ask specifically about the others because I don’t know that much about specific legal things. In general I think governments should obey the law (obviously).

Also issues like around ICE/deportations are murkier. In general I think governments have the responsibility to maintain border integrity and active in the service of their citizens, and if they allow in huge numbers of illegal migrants (also a problem in europe) then eventually things will come to a head. In Scotland a handful of foreign citizens were just elected for example, at least one of whom doesn’t even have a long-term visa. That’s insane to me. So in part my views on those kinds of things in the US are clouded by my opinions on situations elsewhere. I think if you’re an illegal immigrant and the government says they want illegal immigrants out, then you should leave (I mean in general I don’t think you should stay in countries illegally; you’re a guest, after all). I think the sensible path, which is drop immigration, protect borders, and deport illegals in an orderly considered fashion, is being advocated by almost no one which is a problem. I also think there is a kind of gambit being played where parties will drive legal/social infrastructure into the ground if it means a ‘favorable’ outcome (eg make due process so long and expensive that it is impractical to deport large numbers of people), and this is basically happening everywhere and no one in power is trying to stop it. It’s not even clear to me that it can be stopped if the problems get too big. So, from a distance, there’s half a feeling of ‘well at least someones trying something’; does that make sense? I’d probably feel differently if I saw it up close.

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I think the sensible path, which is drop immigration, protect borders, and deport illegals in an orderly considered fashion, is being advocated by almost no one which is a problem.

Can you clarify what you mean by “drop immigration” here?

[anonymous105]

Not sure I understand. You haven’t watched the video yet but want to see comments on it later?

Oh, do you think he and/or his comments are a good barometer for how conservatives are feeling?

Edit: Do you think Asmongold is a useful/informative/insightful/interesting content creator?

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

Not sure I understand. You haven’t watched the video yet but want to see comments on it later?

Sorry, I didn’t explain it very well.

I saw the video shortly after it was posted and, since it was relevant, started watching. Early on I realized that there had not been enough time for people to fully watch the video (except at like 4x or more at that point, or via AI; impractical for a human either way). I went to go look at the comments, and was surprised that there were like two obvious camps. It occurred to me that it might be good to save a snapshot of the comments at this time for later discussion.

@anonymous105

Oh, do you think he and/or his comments are a good barometer for how conservatives are feeling?

maybe. For some people sure. But not sure how relevant/representative his ideas are for conservatives generally.

@anonymous105

Edit: Do you think Asmongold is a useful/informative/insightful/interesting content creator?

he’s entertaining and a news source and the arguments are pretty blunt and common-sense oriented, so yes. I’m not sure there’s any other conservative commentator that I like more (except maybe on specific things).

Not sure he’s that insightful, well he is on some things I guess (his old WoW content at the very least, maybe? I don’t play WoW personally).

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

Can you clarify what you mean by “drop immigration” here?

Greatly reduce. Setting it to 0 is impractical and has way too much collateral damage, but I’d guess that western countries like the UK could reduce it to less than 10% of what it’s been over the past few years with mostly no issues (except for businesses that are like relying on importing lots of workers for low pay in exchange for visas or something). I do not count reduced growth or whatever as an issue; distorted markets are problematic and need corrections, so there’s going to be a penalty on our gdp either way.

It doesn’t even have to be permanent, but needs to placate the right.

This is such an obvious choice that it boggles my mind that anyone fights against it (besides politicians with bad economics and no ideas)

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

he’s entertaining and a news source and the arguments are pretty blunt and common-sense oriented, so yes. I’m not sure there’s any other conservative commentator that I like more (except maybe on specific things).

Got it. Care to comment on any of these?

In this one he confirms that he thinks black people are genetically inferior:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/qpO3n4SKeZ

in this one he is indifferent to the deaths of millions of people:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/WTbNPqjOOA

In this one he smirks and agrees when his views are compared to Hitler’s:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/l6hg1NGznG

This one is a compilation of several disturbing things, including his gleeful reaction to the murder of Renee Good:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/04tSy2bl5O

So what do you think? Had you seen any of this before? Do these examples change your view of him at all or nah? Do you agree with any of the views expressed above?

--

Big picture, I think Asmongold is emblematic of radicalizing algorithms. As I understand it he spends hours and hours each day scrolling his twitter feed consuming outrage porn and getting radicalized. From what I have heard his views have gotten much more extreme over the past couple of years.

This is also a thing I have mentioned being concerned about regarding your own views.

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

Greatly reduce. Setting it to 0 is impractical and has way too much collateral damage, but I’d guess that western countries like the UK could reduce it to less than 10% of what it’s been over the past few years with mostly no issues (except for businesses that are like relying on importing lots of workers for low pay in exchange for visas or something). I do not count reduced growth or whatever as an issue; distorted markets are problematic and need corrections, so there’s going to be a penalty on our gdp either way.

Thanks for clarifying. I actually was not sure if you meant “drop” as in “reduce” or as in “let go of” so any clarification was helpful.

So, reduce immigration to western countries to less than 10% of current level, and that will have no issues. Except reduced growth (I agree!), but that does not count because immigration has distorted the market towards an unrealistic level of growth? I think I kinda agree again but I’m guessing I’m missing something. I wouldn’t really call that market “distorted” so much as… “grown” or something.

@anonymous45

It doesn’t even have to be permanent, but needs to placate the right.

Wait, so do you think massively reducing immigration would be good, or would it be bad but necessary to placate the right?

@anonymous45

This is such an obvious choice that it boggles my mind that anyone fights against it (besides politicians with bad economics and no ideas)

I think you must be operating in a profound echo chamber if that boggles your mind.

Are you saying that anyone who thinks that high amounts of immigration is economically beneficial has “bad economics” then?

I’m pretty sure that means you think that approximately all liberal economists have bad economics. Note I don’t mean liberal like a political affiliation, I mean in the sense of liberalism, like western political philosophy.

The opposing schools of thought within liberalism mostly agree that immigration is beneficial economically. Both Austrians and Keynesians and all the various branches from either school of thought — all bad economists in your view?

As far as I know the only economic thinkers who agree with you are like… communists, fascists, and…? I dunno who else. Maybe 18th-19th century mercantilists or something? It’s hard to know because I think even in most of these cases the honest ones do not claim that immigration is bad economically, they think it is bad because they are xenophobic and they are willing to take an economic hit to preserve their fragile anti-liberal society. Or they think it is bad because it threatens their economic niche. Stuff like that.

Can you explain yourself a bit more? This is pretty surprising to me.

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

In this one he confirms that he thinks black people are genetically inferior:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/qpO3n4SKeZ

I assume you are talking about the part where he says “They are, it’s a fact.”. Can you please quote the sentence before and then analyze both? Particularly, what is “they” referring to?

@anonymous105

including his gleeful reaction to the murder of Renee Good:

I mentioned this kind of reaction recently as a reason that I didn’t like him. (edit: that’s a bit ambiguous. More precisely I mean like it’s a thing I don’t like that’s contributing to me changing my mind and enjoying his content less.)

I’ll respond to the rest later, too.

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I assume you are talking about the part where he says “They are, it’s a fact.”. Can you please quote the sentence before and then analyze both? Particularly, what is “they” referring to?

Sure.

“…Socioeconomic conditions are a cope and everyone knows it. This is the Elon Musk style No, they are genetically inferior and socioeconomic conditions are a cope.'”

“They are, it’s a fact.”

“They” is probably referring to socioeconomic conditions, so “they are” is confirming the idea of socioeconomic conditions being a cope.

Did you think I thought he was saying “they are” as in “black people are genetically inferior” and this close reading would reveal my confusion?

Unfortunately, it doesn’t, and this changes nothing about my summary. He is also saying black people are genetically inferior. Pretty clearly, IMO. Let’s investigate.

Why are socioeconomic conditions a cope?

The directly connected stated reason is because black people are genetically inferior. That is the only reason given. The two statements are not unrelated independent ideas, they are one idea. One part is the explanation for the other part.

If I say “apples taste like dogshit, and they are the worst fruit” and you say “they are! that’s a fact.” the implication is that you agree apples are the worst fruit because they taste like dogshit. If you actually think apples taste fine but they are the worst fruit because their seeds contain small amounts of cyanide, you would need to assert that in the same statement where you say “they are” in order for anyone to reasonably conclude that.

If Asmon intended to say socioeconomic conditions are a cope but not because black people are genetically inferior then he would need to actually disentangle the two linked ideas. The emphatic way he says “they are” seems pretty clear to me.

However, the clip does cut off there. I think all of the stuff I linked was pretty damning and it is hard to imagine contexts that would make any of them okay. But this is an example where it is possible that context could help some.

If the very next thing Asmon said, that was cut off and omitted from the clip, was something like “of course the reason socioeconomic conditions are a cope is not that black people are genetically inferior. That’s absurd, they’re not! The actual reason it is a cope is [insert some non-genetic reason]” then I will hear that out and reassess how racist I think his position is.

Based on what I’ve seen of Asmongold, I don’t expect that to be the missing context. But feel free to show me if I am mistaken.

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I mentioned this kind of reaction recently as a reason that I didn’t like him. (edit: that’s a bit ambiguous. More precisely I mean like it’s a thing I don’t like that’s contributing to me changing my mind and enjoying his content less.)

I’ll respond to the rest later, too.

Full disclosure:

I think literally everything I linked… the tweet and each video clip individually… would be entirely disqualifying on its own. Each one by itself IMO can only come from someone who has an extremely warped view and, at best, ought to be engaged with extreme caution.

I think Elliot might say that I ought to have simply picked the worst one and posted only it instead? Not sure, just guessing.

But when it comes to a content creator who streams for many many hours, I think it’s helpful to have multiple examples. A single example could maybe be dismissed as like “ah he didn’t really mean it he was just in a bad mood that day and some racist misogynist xenophobic fascist stuff slipped out by mistake.” But lots of examples illustrates a pattern of behavior that is consistently bad.

I am curious how many of them you found distasteful vs. how many you agreed with. Even just your unargued initial reactions. If you want, you could also focus any arguments on why the distasteful ones are not disqualifying (rather than us getting into an argument where we disagree that one specific example actually is distasteful at all.)

[Elliot]

@anonymous105

I think Elliot might say that I ought to have simply picked the worst one and posted only it instead? Not sure, just guessing.

I liked seeing a bunch of short examples. I haven’t watched him for a long time and didn’t know it was that bad.

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

If the very next thing Asmon said, that was cut off and omitted from the clip, was something like “of course the reason socioeconomic conditions are a cope is not that black people are genetically inferior. That’s absurd, they’re not! The actual reason it is a cope is [insert some non-genetic reason]” then I will hear that out and reassess how racist I think his position is.

I don’t think whether it’s the “very next thing” or not matters that much. I don’t think it’s fair to apply standards of writing/polish that you have for written stuff to live interactions. I’ve said stupid things on stage before, or focused on the wrong thing in interviews. It happens.

So, given that, would him explaining at all count for your purposes to hear his actual reasoning here out? (He responded to the clip recently, so we have his statement on the matter)

Maybe it doesn’t matter, there are other problems that we agree on, in any case.

@anonymous105

I think Elliot might say that I ought to have simply picked the worst one and posted only it instead? Not sure, just guessing.

If you did that and it was the example we’re talking about, it’s easy to refute. Also, if that is all that’s required, I can just post counterexamples of crazy stuff Hassan or Democrats have said and ask you the same kind of questions. Ultimately I think we get to the kind of position we’re already at and agree on: both sides have bad things about them. So if you were going to do that, just post the worst one, then there’s no buffer and I think it can actually make people who like Asmon be more ardent, not less.

I think what you did is better, in part because asmon isn’t the whole topic we’re interested in. Our own ideas are part of the discussion topic too. I prefer being able to pick and choose things to respond to.

On the note of responses, I just picked the easiest two (to respond to) to start with. I am trying to be more efficient (time/attention wise) with the discussion.

PS. yes I intend to respond to your longer post in the other thread also.

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

If I say “apples taste like dogshit, and they are the worst fruit” and you say “they are! that’s a fact.” the implication is that you agree apples are the worst fruit because they taste like dogshit. If you actually think apples taste fine but they are the worst fruit because their seeds contain small amounts of cyanide, you would need to assert that in the same statement where you say “they are” in order for anyone to reasonably conclude that.

If Asmon intended to say socioeconomic conditions are a cope but not because black people are genetically inferior then he would need to actually disentangle the two linked ideas. The emphatic way he says “they are” seems pretty clear to me.

If this were written essay-grade text, sure I’d agree (almost always), but with any kind of live discussion I think you need to also consider the long term context. If a group makes the same (incorrect) accusatory claim about me over and over, while also engaging with the discussion I’m interested in, I think it’s reasonable to eventually just ignore the accusatory claim and respond to the other stuff. Especially if it’s in the context of deliberately looking at it more from a ‘what are their arguments’ basis.

I don’t even agree with a literal/reductionist interpretation of what you quoted: why isn’t Asmon actually making the claim that Elon is racist and thinks that socioeconomic conditions are a cope? (At least in the way you interpreted the phrasing)

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I don’t think whether it’s the “very next thing” or not matters that much. I don’t think it’s fair to apply standards of writing/polish that you have for written stuff to live interactions. I’ve said stupid things on stage before, or focused on the wrong thing in interviews. It happens.

No problem. I thought that was your point, trying to apply a very close precise reading.

I think the straightforward casual unpolished reading of what he said is that “they are” is referring to both black people being genetically inferior and socioeconomic status being a cope.

@anonymous45

So, given that, would him explaining at all count for your purposes to hear his actual reasoning here out? (He responded to the clip recently, so we have his statement on the matter)

I’m aware of his response after the fact, once he got criticized for the statement. I don’t find it remotely credible. About black people being genetically inferior, he even says:

Even if I thought that I wouldn’t say it on stream. So, it’s retarded.

This is not convincing me that he is not racist. I would want some clear indication from the stream where he said “they are” for me to think he did not mean black people are genetically inferior.

Also, I would consider his position in his defense statements (basically that black people have a bad/criminal culture) to also be racist. Just less overtly so.

@anonymous45

Also, if that is all that’s required, I can just post counterexamples of crazy stuff Hassan or Democrats have said and ask you the same kind of questions. Ultimately I think we get to the kind of position we’re already at and agree on: both sides have bad things about them.

I think maybe you got a bit lost on the topic. The thing I brought up here was specifically whether or not Asmongold is an insightful/good commentator worth listening to. The topic was not “conservative content creators are all bad and lefty content creators are all good.”

Edit: Here is what you said that prompted me diving into it in more detail:

he’s entertaining and a news source and the arguments are pretty blunt and common-sense oriented, so yes. I’m not sure there’s any other conservative commentator that I like more (except maybe on specific things).

That seems like a fairly significant endorsement to me. /end of edit.

From what I’ve seen, I would say that I consider Hasan to be almost as loathsome as Asmongold. And the extent to which he is less awful is mostly just because his “side” is not in power in the US, so he is often attacking bad people. But I don’t think most of his attacks are good, and I think he spends a lot of time attacking people better than him (like mainstream Democrats). And if he got his way he would be defending horrible stuff in much the same way Asmongold does. He defends the Soviet Union and the CCP for example. As far as I can tell he is basically just as illiberal as Asmongold.

But again, I think that’s kinda unrelated to what we were discussing. I am fine with you picking and choosing which parts to reply to, but I probably won’t engage too much with a tangent/aside that requires me to defend the worst most illiberal leftist commentators. I don’t like them.

[anonymous105]

@anonymous45

I don’t even agree with a literal/reductionist interpretation of what you quoted: why isn’t Asmon actually making the claim that Elon is racist and thinks that socioeconomic conditions are a cope? (At least in the way you interpreted the phrasing)

This is totally an irrelevant aside that we don’t need to argue… but I will anyway just for a fun exercise in writing analysis.

The quotes again:

“…Socioeconomic conditions are a cope and everyone knows it. This is the Elon Musk style No, they are genetically inferior and socioeconomic conditions are a cope.'”

“They are, it’s a fact.”

“They are” would not be a coherent way to agree that Elon thinks that. He would need to have said something more like “It is” — as in, “it is the Elon Musk style statement.”

“They are” does not really connect with the Elon Musk part of the statement.

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

So, reduce immigration to western countries to less than 10% of current level, and that will have no issues. Except reduced growth (I agree!), but that does not count because immigration has distorted the market towards an unrealistic level of growth? I think I kinda agree again but I’m guessing I’m missing something. I wouldn’t really call that market “distorted” so much as… “grown” or something.

Kinda; but in terms of economic/market distortions, we’re in a house of (nonplanar) mirrors; we have distortions on distortions on distortions. IMO Part of the problem is this idea that all corrections are bad and we should avoid them, even though corrections are arguably a natural part of price finding and error correction.

So while there is a principled reason to try and reduce external distorting effects so we can like let economic repairs work or similar, the main reason is to placate so we can better focus.

@anonymous105

Wait, so do you think massively reducing immigration would be good, or would it be bad but necessary to placate the right?

Mixed. It let’s us deal with some problems without adding to them, but we miss out on a few good people. We could also allow more quid-pro-quo migration with highly compatible cultures since those immigrants are on average more useful and beneficial (and they don’t annoy the right as much), and they are the places our citizens most consider emigrating to.

@anonymous105

Are you saying that anyone who thinks that high amounts of immigration is economically beneficial has “bad economics” then?

Well if they say it like that, sure (who is immigrating matters). But in general no.

Things that one should consider:

• is it better than simply trading?
• net contributor or not?
• long term effects (voting enclaves, inviting in illiberal people, etc)
  …

Actually, here’s an easy way to prove my point. Assuming you are from the states: if immigration is so good, would you be in favor of all UK citizens that are right of center immigrating to the US? Would there be any negative consequences from that?

Hope that makes my point clearer.

Why does the distribution of who is immigrating matter? If it doesn’t matter, then surely you won’t mind the rightoid influx?

[anonymous45]

@anonymous105

he’s entertaining and a news source and the arguments are pretty blunt and common-sense oriented, so yes. I’m not sure there’s any other conservative commentator that I like more (except maybe on specific things).

That seems like a fairly significant endorsement to me.

I don’t see why it is an endorsement at all. ‘Better than other conservative commentators’ is not a high bar (if you have a suggestion for someone better, I’m all ears). (edit: removed ‘necessarily’, seemed unnecessary)

Also also would have said similar things about Atrioc and Destiny and Dev (tho i don’t consider any of them conservative).

One thing that separates them is that Asmon is very good at farming, which is another mixed trait.