Baba Is You

[Eternity]

@LMD
Hey, friend.

How far have you gotten in Baba is You? You like it so far?

I like the game a lot so far.

[LMD]

Hey!

So far I have 50 dandelions. My play time is 14 hours. Yeah I like it. It’s been a bit frustrating at times, but Elliots advice to not worry about clearing each level has been good.

I just unlocked the area ‘Temple Ruins’ yesterday. It’s the one where ‘has’ is introduced for the first time.

I had got a bit stuck on the previous area ‘Forest of Fall’. I still have yet to solve levels 3, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, B, C, and the second bonus level (I think it’s a bonus level idk). So I’ve only cleared 8 of those so far.

[Eternity]

@LMD

It’s been a bit frustrating at times, but Elliots advice to not worry about clearing each level has been good.

What frustrates you when playing? Just curious. I think out of my whole time playing there’s been only one level in the whole game that’s truly frustrated me (it’s a level in area 6, finally beat it yesterday though). The concepts introduced in that area were a bit unintuitive to me. I think the fact that you have unlimited undo’s has made this game enjoyable. I hated puzzle games where one mistake has you redoing the whole thing.

@LMD

I had got a bit stuck on the previous area ‘Forest of Fall’. I still have yet to solve levels 3, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, B, C, and the second bonus level (I think it’s a bonus level idk). So I’ve only cleared 8 of those so far.

Ok. I just re-beat all those levels. I don’t know how I would give any broad-based tips, but I could share some simple hints for the levels. You could also share with me how you’re approaching a specific level. Hmm. Now that I think about it: do you have a plan for the level soon after you start? I can usually form a plan for how I want to approach the level fast (doesn’t mean its right or anything, just that I’m quick to sum up all the text).

Here’s a simple hint for level 3: Have you tried teleporting words?

EDIT:
12 is really simple. There’s no fancy solution for that.

[LMD]

@Eternity

12 is really simple. There’s no fancy solution for that.

Interesting, I just beat this level after seeing that you said this. I approached it with the mindset that it was easy, and that I was looking for a simple solution, and I just got it.

[LMD]

@Eternity

What frustrates you when playing?

When I’ve gotten frustrated recently on those levels, it feels like none of my ideas are working, and I can’t currently think of any new ideas. Like I’m mentally blocked. And I know implicitly that the level must solvable, but it seems impossible. I feel like I just want to know the answer (but I know that’d actually make me feel bad to just know without figuring it out.)

It makes me impressed that some people face way harder problems and persist and sometimes solve them, despite not knowing whether a solution even is possible (Einstein is who I think of).

Having to redo the whole thing does sound annoying. I’m glad Baba isn’t like that.

@Eternity

You could also share with me how you’re approaching a specific level.

I’m going back through those ‘Forest of Fall’ levels currently. When I find one that I think I’m well and truly stuck on, I’ll write down my approach, and why I think its not working, and share it. Sound good?

@Eternity

Now that I think about it: do you have a plan for the level soon after you start? I can usually form a plan for how I want to approach the level fast (doesn’t mean its right or anything, just that I’m quick to sum up all the text).

Kind of? Sometimes something like this happens. Like sometimes I can see that the problem is designed such that certain things aren’t possible, and that I have to do x with only y, z and not w or something. I might have to pay more attention to this on a few other ones though and get back to you.

With level 3 in Forest of Fall, I think I need to somehow push the love heart on the right down into the water, to melt the water. I think that would mean teleporting over there, and then changing it to push, somehow. I have tried with teleporting words, but it doesn’t seem possible to get a whole phrase over there without messing up its tele function. I’m going to explore that more though.

[LMD]

@LMD

With level 3 in Forest of Fall, I think I need to somehow push the love heart on the right down into the water, to melt the water. I think that would mean teleporting over there, and then changing it to push, somehow. I have tried with teleporting words, but it doesn’t seem possible to get a whole phrase over there without messing up its tele function. I’m going to explore that more though.

Cool I solved this! I figured out the technique on level 8 where it uses something similar.

[Elliot]

I approximately divide levels or problems into 2 categories:

1. Efficient use of resources. Implementation details.
2. Thinking outside the box. Breaking what appears to be a rule. Doing what looks impossible.

A tip: if you’re stuck, write out a list of every rule you can form using the words you can push around. Do any of them help? I’ve beaten some levels by making a list then realizing one of the rules is helpful (or realizing I don’t actually know what the game will do if I write something so it’s worth trying).

If you imagine you can form whatever rules you want with the available words, and turn them on and off in the right combinations at the right times, and you comprehensively considered all the rules available, and you’re still stuck about how to deal with an obstacle, then it’s a type 2 level/problem that you’re facing.

I’ll use level 4-5 as an example since @Eternity and @LMD have both solved it and looked at that zone recently. My comments include major hints which get into spoiler territory for 4-5.

For me, level 4-5 required type 2 thinking. What requires type 2 thinking may vary by player and how they see the game and what sorts of rules of thumb they have. What looks impossible to you at first is just a heuristic, not an exact logical requirement, since sometimes it actually is possible.

When you see that formation, usually it’s impossible to deactivate that rule. You can never separate those words or push any of them down. It’s only possible to move the whole group left or right a little which doesn’t change the rule. There is space to add extra words, so if you have “not” or “and” you could do something. You could also write “leaf is …” going down or “foilage is leaf is defeat” by adding words in front. But outside of those kinds of limited cases, this is a permanent rule you’re stuck with.

Here’s the whole level

I start with type 1 thinking and I’ll try type 2 if it doesn’t work. So when I tried to solve this level, I wanted to move the leaf out of the way so I could walk over to the heart. That seemed like useful progress, and I was able to do it using the teleporter by switching between “ghost is tele” and “ghost is push”.

I’ll use type 1 thinking for one part of the level at a time. In this case, I was able to use the available (type 1) resources to solve one of the apparent problems in the level (getting out of the room you start trapped in).

So I reached the heart but then I paid more attention to the shortage of “is” blocks. There are only two “is”, one in “baba is you” which I need, and the other in the apparently impossible to split up rule.

So what did I do first? I thought about using the teleporter on the “baba is you” rule. Maybe the “is” could alternate between activating that rule and activating “love is win”. But then I realized even if I could do that and keep the teleporting rule always active, it still wouldn’t work: I need to be something and have the victory condition active on the same turn.

So that’s when I focused more on thinking outside the box. I started thinking maybe it’s actually impossible to win while leaving “leaf is defeat” alone. Once I focused more attention on that obstacle I was able to figure it out.

I’ve used similar reasoning/methods on many other levels, and I find a fair amount are solvable with type 1 reasoning but some aren’t.

Some levels require a single big type 2 trick to solve and the rest is easy. Sometimes that’s pretty obvious right away.

Some levels require a lot of type 1 work but also a type 2 trick, which may be big or small, but you have to figure out a lot of the type 1 stuff before you even get to the point in the level where you do the type 2 thing.

Here’s another example (no spoilers just small hints), zone 5, extra 2:

Here, you appear to need 2 things you can push around: 1 to get through the door and 1 to get through the water. But you only have one boulder. Text is float so you can’t use the words to break obstacles. So this looks like a type 2 trick is necessary: you have to do something that may initially seem impossible. (I haven’t solved this one yet btw.)

This is also a good example for how I look at available words. There are 8 words inside the room with you which you can push around freely. So I could make a list of all the rules I could form with those 8 words (I haven’t done that yet but if I want to solve it I should). There are also a bunch of rules outside of the room which I’m probably just stuck with. The ones on the edge look impossible to change. The skull rule is changeable if you get out but that’s probably pointless: once you’re out you can just walk on the flag and win. So you need some concept of which words you can work with, and which you can’t, when making a list of all the rules you could write. I wouldn’t write “skull is push” on my list, even though all of those words exist on the level, because there’s no “skull” word inside the room I’m in, and I don’t expect to be able to use the word “skull” until it’s no longer relevant. Sometimes first impressions like this are incorrect and some sort of type 2 solution is needed to mess with those rules, but most of the time I find the rules that look like they aren’t meant to be intractable are in fact not something I interact with.

Here’s one more example, level 2-11 (no spoilers just small hints):

Here, the “win” is outside the room you’re trapped in. To me, this makes it obvious right away that some type 2 thinking will be necessary. If I only play normally (type 1), I won’t be able to get out of the room since it has a solid wall the entire way around and there’s a “wall is stop” rule that I can’t break up since it’s against a wall so there’s no way to push any of those words horizontally. So that means I’ll have to violate some kinda initial assumption/preconception/expectation/rule-of-thumb to win.

[Elliot]

4-8 spoilers. Example of using writing to help organize thinking and reach a solution.

I hadn’t solved 4-8 yet. I just did it.

First I played the level a bit to get experience and intuition about it. I didn’t remember much and don’t think I tried it much before. I got an initial understanding of what is hard about it (initial because sometimes there turn out to be more layers of difficulty later).

I started by writing a list of what rules i could form. That didn’t help much so next I decided to write a list of important beliefs I had about the level. I figured if I listed those well, then at least one would have to be wrong, and writing them down might help. And indeed the first one was, while not wrong as written, helpful and related to a wrong belief.

Here’s what I wrote:

rock is push
leaf is push

rock is leaf
leaf is rock (NO, rock is stuck above leaf)

rock is tele
leaf is tele

beliefs:

if something is push and tele, i can’t step onto it. (i could already be on it though when it becomes both. maybe that’s the key)

tele does nothing unless there are 2+ objects

tele with 3+ objects sends to a random other teleporter

i can’t push the ghost to where the key starts

i need to teleport the key to the word room by putting the rock on it then turning the rock into a leaf

if i get a push tele leaf to the ghost, i won’t be able to get the ghost on it because the ghost is also push

oh i need the key to warp back and forth. then i push the leaf every other turn. get key into ghost room. then move ghost onto key

Then I solved it. Solving it involves some implementation details and trial and error, mainly setting this part up correctly so I could activate the second leaf rule while getting myself teleported simultaneously:

I didn’t spend a long time before writing. And the writing didn’t take very long either. And solving it after I was done writing was also quick. I wrote all that at once without playing in the middle. If you’re having a harder time, you could alternate playing and writing.

[Elliot]

Here’s what I wrote to solve 4-B. Spoilers.

beliefs:

i need to be 2 things at once to get one into the “is win” room and leave it there

i need to turn the thing in the “is win” room into text

that turns two things into text

i only have 3 things: keke, box, flag

i need 2 things to win: something=you and something else = win

you can win with one thing but you need to turn into it, and make it you, at the same time, which i don’t think i can do

i can’t do e.g. “text is keke” or i won’t be able to write a victory rule anymore

maybe i have to take the teleporter and push something at the same time?

to move “X is you” up by the teleporter, i need 2 of something. like 1 keke and 2 flags can push it up. but then what do i turn into text? i’ll still only have one type of thing left over. even if i have 2 flags outside and “keke is win”, i don’t think i can move the words for “flag is keke” and “keke is you” at the same time.

i can’t stack extra words to change who i am while entering teleporter while leaving “keke is you” on original row. i’m one word short.

box has stop trait. maybe that could be useful somehow?

oh maybe this is a “text is you” level? yeah that’s it. set it up like earlier with “keke is win”. then do “text is you”. then get “flag is keke” too.

oh, i can’t win this way because text is float. standing on the flag doesn’t work. however, i can readjust to “flag is you” now to win.

[Eternity]

@LMD

It makes me impressed that some people face way harder problems and persist and sometimes solve them, despite not knowing whether a solution even is possible (Einstein is who I think of).

Yeah, ~same. I think part of why I’ve liked Baba is You so far is because I feel that no puzzle is impossible and so I never felt that way with any of the puzzles (save the one I got frustrated with). Technically, if the devs did their job right no puzzle game is impossible but some games just make the puzzles feel impossible.

@LMD

I’m going back through those ‘Forest of Fall’ levels currently. When I find one that I think I’m well and truly stuck on, I’ll write down my approach, and why I think its not working, and share it. Sound good?

Yeah. I’ll probably do the same at some point.

[Eternity]

@Elliot

I approximately divide levels or problems into 2 categories:

1. Efficient use of resources. Implementation details.
2. Thinking outside the box. Breaking what appears to be a rule. Doing what looks impossible.

I feel like this has been my experience of the game so far. So it helps to have it written out. Though I think its all subconscious and I do both at once. Maybe it will help to look it as implementation details and then see if I need to think outside the box.

@Elliot

A tip: if you’re stuck, write out a list of every rule you can form using the words you can push around. Do any of them help? I’ve beaten some levels by making a list then realizing one of the rules is helpful (or realizing I don’t actually know what the game will do if I write something so it’s worth trying).

There are quite a few levels I’m stuck on currently. Maybe this could help? I’ll try it out soon and see how it goes, cause I think at this point I need a better process for attacking these levels.

[LMD]

I tried level 4-B using some of the writing techniques Elliot did. (Which I hadn’t solved yet). I solved the level! I haven’t looked at how Elliot did it yet.

Here are my notes:

rules i cant change:

water is tele
text is float
wall and box is stop

rules i can make:

keke is you
box is you
text is you
flag is you

text is box
box is text
flag is box
box is flag
text is flag
flag is text

beliefs:

I need to get text up into the area in the top right with ‘is win’ in it but i cant move existing text because it is float and so wont tele.

I cant change that the text is floating, so I have to move an object (flag, box, keke) up there, and then convert it to text

When i convert an object to text, it converts all instances of that object to text. (So if i convert ‘box’ to text to make ‘box is win’, i then have to convert some other object into a box in order to use the box as the winning object.)

I can’t see why it matters that the box is stop. I currently don’t think it matters.

There are 3 main objects to work with: box, flag, keke.

I can convert two of them to be the same. E.g box → flag, now there are two flags

I can then make myself both of them, and tele one into in the upper right area.

Now if im careful not to move such to make the upper right area words messed up, I can convert myself back to keke, and then convert flag to text. Then i have ‘flag is win’ in the upper right area, but no flags.

Can I convert another object back to a flag? what objects remain? keke, text

If i could make keke is flag, and flag is you, i would win

If i do ‘text is flag’ or ‘text is box’ i cant win cos i need ‘something is you’ in order to win

okay if i do ‘text is you’ i can covert keke to flag

hmm okay, but the text cant get the flag, cos it’s float.

I think if i now make ‘flag is you’ then I win

great yup! solved.

Okay so I was right that the fact that box was ‘stop’ didn’t matter.

In hindsight I noticed that the layout of the map might be giving some clues too. There are those four walled in trees, and I think they were for manipulating the text. I had wondered what they were for on an earlier attempt.

---

I don’t think that I got clues from me writing out my thoughts. It worked more like a thought/idea log for me. Maybe in future ones I’ll find i can use writing more as a way to find clues. I want to practise using this technique on future ones, even to just practise getting my ideas down.

edit: wrote wrong level number

[Dface]

@Elliot

Assignment: Play the video game Baba Is You (currently on sale on Steam).

It’s a puzzle game with unlimited undo so you don’t have to start over if you mess up. It’s safe to do trial and error. It uses logical thinking and words.

Determine if you like it and/or think you’re learning something. If so, replace some of your other video game time with playing it.

If you’re interested, there’s also another puzzle game I particularly like, which is Toki Tori (1 not 2), so feel free to try it, but it’s more like a regular game and the puzzles aren’t based on words and logic as much.

I’ve been playing Baba is You lately and have 14 dandelions and 1 flower. I’m stuck on the level called sunken temple from the Lakes area. I’m ok with moving on to solitary island and doing those levels.

I was thinking how am I going to write about Baba is You on this thread, and I thought I could try to practice ET’s approach:

@Elliot

I approximately divide levels or problems into 2 categories:

1. Efficient use of resources. Implementation details.
2. Thinking outside the box. Breaking what appears to be a rule. Doing what looks impossible.

A tip: if you’re stuck, write out a list of every rule you can form using the words you can push around. Do any of them help? I’ve beaten some levels by making a list then realizing one of the rules is helpful (or realizing I don’t actually know what the game will do if I write something so it’s worth trying).

If you imagine you can form whatever rules you want with the available words, and turn them on and off in the right combinations at the right times, and you comprehensively considered all the rules available, and you’re still stuck about how to deal with an obstacle, then it’s a type 2 level/problem that you’re facing.

Maybe I could practice that approach for the level I’m stuck on or revisit the older levels to get a hang of the approach. Idk yet I’ll come back soon to write it out. I do like doing the levels on my own time like I’m not forcing an approach, but I would like to talk about the game in an objective way.

[Dface]

@Elliot

Assignment: Play the video game Baba Is You (currently on sale on Steam).

So for the Sunken Temple level in the Lakes area I’m going to practice the tip mentioned below. I thought it would be nice to try since I’m stuck and have a lot of rules in my head for it. Quote about the tip:

@Elliot

A tip: if you’re stuck, write out a list of every rule you can form using the words you can push around. Do any of them help?

Ok, I’m going to use spoilers so the level doesn’t get ruined for others:

The Lakes-Sunken temple level

List of rules:

• Baba is You
• Baba is Push
• Baba is Rock
• Baba is Defeat
• Rock is You
• Rock is Push
• Rock is Defeat
• Rock is Wall
• Rock is Baba

@Elliot

Do any of them help?

Not anything that comes to mind.

• Baba is You

For this one it’s just the player controlling Baba

• Baba is Push

For this one I can push baba around instead of the rock but that’s the same if as if I was baba pushing the rock.

• Baba is Rock

For this rule, I can have two rocks on the field or have two babas if I flip the rule

• Baba is Defeat

• Rock is Defeat

For these I was thinking that they were useless cuz they just have me lose if I walk into the defeating objects. Now, though I think I could probably push the rock into the crab then make the rule that the Rock is Defeat. That way maybe the crab dies. I’m going to try it out. If it doesn’t work that’s ok I’ll just move on to the next area.

[Elliot]

I usually wouldn’t try very hard on a level until I’d already tried every level I could access.

[Dface]

Oh yeah, I do still have a lot of other levels. The other levels are easier, but I don’t know if I should stay and solve the sunken temple one and learn something for later.

I don’t want to read too much into it, but me staying and trying hard on a level might mean something. Idk

[Elliot]

When you learn things, you generally want to do easier parts first and harder parts later when you know more about it. It’s generally significantly more efficient (you learn more for the same time and effort) that way. This applies to Baba, philosophy and many other things.

Teachers and experts (including book and course authors) generally know approximately what’s hard or easy. But the difficulty varies by person.

Part of learning is figuring out a good order to do things. If you just try to finish each thing as you come to it, you’re not really trying to do them in a good order. You’re not thinking about or customizing the order yourself. Often some sort of expert, like a teacher or game designer, picked the order, which means it’ll be roughly in order of difficulty, but not customized enough for you.

Things can also be too easy so you aren’t learning much. Both too hard or too easy are a problem that can make learning inefficient. There are a lot of video games where too-easy can be a major issue, but I wouldn’t expect it to happen with Baba. Too-easy is also an uncommon problem for learning philosophy, whereas too-hard is a common way people get stuck for philosophy.

With philosophy or Baba, it’s important to be monitoring how it’s going and recognize when you’re getting stuck. You want to try other things before finishing sometimes, rather than stay on the same thing to the point of getting frustrated or progress being really slow (so your learning per time and effort is low and inefficient).

@Eternity @LMD

[Elliot]

@Dface

The Lakes-Sunken temple level

It’s easier for people to find levels if you give the zone number and level number.

[Dface]

@Elliot

It’s generally significantly more efficient (you learn more for the same time and effort) that way.

I see how it’s literally math when you say, “you learn more”, like the number of things learned per time and effort is important.

@Elliot

If you just try to finish each thing as you come to it, you’re not really trying to do them in a good order.

Oh ok, I see how doing things as I come to them is not personalized to me. Like, there are things a certain person will struggle more on and things they will have an easier time on.

@Elliot

With philosophy or Baba, it’s important to be monitoring how it’s going and recognize when you’re getting stuck.

Ok, I bet that’s a skill. Maybe I can practice those while playing this game.

@Elliot

You want to try other things before finishing sometimes, rather than stay on the same thing to the point of getting frustrated or progress being really slow (so your learning per time and effort is low and inefficient).

Ok, I see how a fixed mindset could lead to literally less levels done and how that’s literally learning less. I think I have that idea and the idea of “staying until I beat a level otherwise I’m not smart” opposing each other. I’ll be fine I think I’m ok with trying other levels.

[Dface]

Ok, I see the number next to the zone and the number of the level. So Sunken Temple would be called Zone 1- Extra 2