Law

ye. trespass to property is pretty easy to be liable for. going off of what you asked: mmm something like your in the country, lot of land that you probably are allowed to walk on, you end up walking on some dudes property. he has nothing to signify its his property. no fences, no lines on the ground, hell its a big piece of land so his home is far away. you can be liable for walking on his property.

so i haven’t covered criminal stuff yet, but here’s something to (related to your knowledge of things): Civil Trespass vs. Criminal Trespass in Washington: Know the Legal Difference :

Civil trespass—often referred to as “regular trespass”—generally occurs when someone enters private property accidentally or without harmful intent .

Criminal trespass is more serious and involves intent. This means the person knew they were not allowed to enter or remain on the property—but did so anyway.

Now this is from a firm based in Washington, but I’m pretty sure the general idea holds true.

I think part of this has to do with the aims of tort and aims of criminal law. Tort aims to make people whole (in part). If you lost an arm, they want to make it to where it feels like you didn’t lose that arm in the first place (kinda) through money. They hold people liable because the reasoning kinda goes like this: if not for you this wouldn’t have happened, since it happened because of something you did you should pay up. Criminal law aims to protect/get retributive justice. We punish people for certain things because they deserve it and because by punishing them we hope to deter certain actions.

I think the above addresses this (all together):

There’s no good deep reason for this. Mmm. Its just something I thought was fine. I think its because:

  • I see them as police officers (even though they’re not).
  • I think I’m used to seeing them use physical touch. Maybe its because I’ve seen a lot of videos and irl stuff where I think the touch has been justified? Like breaking up fights, removing an unruly customer from the premises, etc.

~yeah, idk how much scope of actions matters here. I shared from the answer:

I wonder if racing would make that possession no longer rightful?

and yeah he would, and could, sue the truck owner for negligence.

Without listing out specific legal stuff about what makes something conversion, it kinda felt like the difference between trespass to chattels and conversion of chattels is that trespass is like stealing but pretending to borrow something while conversion involves you actually just stealing something and treating it like yours (treating it like its your by significantly changing it and converting it).

~yeah. civil, as opposed to criminal law, is heavily created by judges decisions (though some is statutory and some criminal law is decided by judges too). I wonder if there is a judge decision in the same vein as this. I plan to practice reading court opinions (partially out of interest, partially thats a skill for law school). maybe i’ll find one that covers this and explains the courts reasoning.

From the answer explanation:

This seems like applying a strict definition and not considering anything else. I wonder if thats a good thing or bad thing?

But if I couldn’t be expected to know that it would happen wouldn’t I be just equally unlucky (after I was made to pay) as the person who first got hurt?

We’re saying the liable person was responsible for the outcome, but I think you can only be responsible if you could be expected to know what would happen.

Like a worker at a factory was doing his job as usual and a button he pushed causes a chain reaction which made a coworker lose their arm and this would be impossible for the worker to know would happen. I don’t think that worker was responsible for the coworker losing his arm. Would the worker be considered liable?

A real life example: when playing tennis you play a deceptive shot which causes the opponent to trip and break his arm. Would you be considered liable? imo you’re not responsible. The other guy just got unlucky which happens in life.

I’m more okay with it if the goal is only to make the victim partially whole instead of fully whole. We might also suspect that defendants actually did intend or did know what would happen but we can’t prove it (do we expect this? idk). So unjustly having to pay a partial cover seems okay to me.

Causality is tricky. Outcomes have multiple causes. You can say if not for X it wouldn’t have happened. But without Y or Z, it also wouldn’t have happened. (Also, with A, B and C instead, it would have happened anyway despite one of X, Y or Z being missing.)

I agree and the law (up to what I know so far) does too. From Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad Co. - Wikipedia :

The plaintiff, Helen Palsgraf, was waiting at a Long Island Rail Road station in August 1924 while taking her daughters to the beach. Two men attempted to board the train before hers; one (aided by railroad employees) dropped a package that exploded, causing a large coin-operated scale on the platform to hit her. After the incident, she began to stammer, and subsequently sued the railroad, arguing that its employees had been negligent while assisting the man, and that she had been harmed by the neglect. In May 1927 she obtained a jury verdict of $6,000, which the railroad appealed. Palsgraf gained a 3–2 decision in the Appellate Division, and the railroad appealed again. Cardozo wrote for a 4–3 majority of the Court of Appeals, ruling that there was no negligence because the employees, in helping the man board, did not breach any duty of care to Palsgraf as injury to her was not a foreseeable harm from aiding a man with a package. The original jury verdict was overturned, and the railroad won the case

Relatedly there’s two concepts of causes I’ve been introduced to. Actual cause and proximate cause. Actual cause is what it sounds like. Did someone’s actions actually cause something to happen? Proximate cause refers to whether certain consequences were foreseeable. You’re liable for a car crash when speeding because a crash is a foreseeable consequence of speeding (well there are other ways of being liable for speeding too).

Depends on the how many chains(?) in the chain reaction I’d think. Too many chains and yeah I don’t think its a reasonable expectation to know something would happen. Also laws around work and stuff are kind of weird/interesting. I’m not saying I know of any law like this, but I think your employer would be liable in that instant (if there was a liability that is).

Nah. Also that sounds to me in the vein of stuff like implied consent. From Gemini (though I did know about the idea beforehand):

For most ordinary injuries that occur during a sports match, liability is limited by the legal principle of “assumption of risk”. This means that by choosing to participate, you accept the inherent risks of the sport. However, liability can be claimed if your injury resulted from recklessness, intentional harm, or another party’s negligence.

An example I heard elsewhere: I know some basketball matches have it where you can sit close to the players. You assume the risk of them accidentally running into you while playing the sport.

wdym by partially whole?

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Somes notes on Negligence:

  • Elements of Negligence
    • Negligence is a big, comprehensive subject. There will be two different sections dedicated to this topic.
    • Five elements of negligence:
      • 1.)“The defendant must owe a duty to the plaintiff to conform to a particular standard of care.”
        • So negligence is based on a standard of care. I assume standard of care means something like a standard/basic level of carefulness you owe to other people. You owe to other people on the road, for example, to check your mirrors and blind spots before changing lanes or something.
      • 2.) that duty (which is conforming to a particular standard of care) must be breached/ignored/broken by:
        • 3.)actually
        • 4.)proximately causing
        • 5.) legally recognized harm to the plaintiff
    • The above five elements are not universal. They’re maybe four elements. The wording may combine some of the above. Generally speaking though, most negligence law will be similar to the above.
    • Related to the five elements not being universal: the goal of this section is less so to give a clear. consistent definition of negligence in the law, but instead to inform you of principles/fundamentals behind what is considered negligent.
    • The basic idea is that:
      • the defendant was careless
      • that carelessness harmed the plaintiff
      • the plaintiff was owed a duty by the defendant to be more careful then he already was
    • Negligence - “makes us legally responsible for the harm we cause to other people if we are not as careful as we should be”
    • Duty - A bunch of stuff explaining stuff I think already said. Main point is this: their must be a legal duty here (I wonder what would be a duty you owe someone thats non-legal)
    • Two views of duty:
      • Majority view (is this saying this is the view of most people?):
        • “A duty to refrain from acting negligently is only recognized under certain, particular circumstances.”
          • So the duty to refrain only emerges in certain, particular cases. In most cases, in general day to day, it is not a concern.
      • Minority View:
        • “A duty to refrain from acting negligently is a duty owed to all.”
    • Oh interesting:
      • If you hurt two people, A and B, due to negligence only the parties you owed a duty to can sue for negligence (presumably this is the majority view). You owed a duty to A to conform to some standard of behavior/care, but not B, so A can sue you but not B.
    • “Later videos will treat with more depth the question of when and under what circumstances the law will recognize a duty on the part of the defendant not to behave negligently. The question usually boils down to whether, under the particular circumstances, the relationship between the defendant and the plaintiff is sufficient to give rise to a duty on the part of the defendant to exercise reasonable care not to injure the plaintiff. Usually, if someone in the plaintiff’s position could reasonably foreseeably be injured by the defendant’s conduct if he is not reasonably careful, then that gives rise to a duty on the part of the defendant to exercise the degree of care that a reasonable person in his position would exercise so as to avoid injuring someone in The plaintiff’s position.”
      • There are certain circumstances when the law will recognize a duty by the defendant to not act negligently. Ok.
      • Duty of a defendant to a plaintiff comes about, in part, from the relationship the plaintiff and defendant had. Ok.
      • The relationship(?) could be as simple as: the plaintiff knew that they could be injured by the defendant if they are not careful. The video, at this point, shows a car crash. So while the defendant and plaintiff presumably had no prior relationship. They do have a relationship of fellow drivers(?).
    • Standard of Care:
      • general duty - “acting in a way to protect others from unreasonable risk of injury”
    • Breach:
      • Breach here refers to when the defendant has, supposedly, failed to behave as a reasonably prudent person.
      • the breach must be the cause of the harm
    • Legally-cognizable Harms:
      • Bodily harm
      • Property damages
    • Actual Causation
      • typically means but-for causation
      • while but-for causation is the most common test, it is not the only tests courts can use to establish causation
    • Proximate Causation
      • I don’t get this that well. Here’s some other stuff:
        • Foreseeability
          • If a reasonable person was in the defendant’s position they would have known the consequences of their actions.
    • Causation Generally in Tort Law
      • Causation gets talked about the most in negligence but is an important thing for a lot of areas of tort law.
    • Foreseeable v. Conceivable
      • A car crash due to drinking and driving is foreseeable. A tree falling down is conceivable, not foreseeable.

I got 1 question wrong on my negligence quiz:

A college student was walking down the street eating a banana. When he finished the banana, he threw the peel in a garbage can. Soon after, a sanitation worker came and emptied the garbage can, dropping the banana peel onto the sidewalk in the process. A passerby stepped on the peel, slipped, and broke her hip.

If the passerby sues the student for negligence, on which of the following essential elements of negligence will the passerby be least likely to prevail?

I thought the issue would be actual cause. To me the banana falling out of the trash can because of the sanitation worker seemed too far removed to blame the student.

The question does say least likely, so it could be all of them are kinda unlikely (except harm) its just breach is the least likely out of all of them. Since he does owe a duty of care to others (I think), he did play a part in this banana slipping ordeal, and she was actually harmed. However, he did not really breach his duty to the lady. The sanitation worked did. From the explanation:

Answer option B is correct. The basic elements of negligence are that the actor owes the victim a duty to conform to a standard of care, and the actor breaches that duty, actually and proximately causing the victim harm. In general, an actor breaches a duty owed to a victim by failing to follow the standard of care, or, in other words, by failing to behave as a reasonably prudent person would under the circumstances. Here, by putting the banana peel in the garbage can as soon as he finished eating the banana, the student seems to have done everything a reasonable person could have been expected to do in these circumstances to prevent a passerby from slipping on the banana peel. Because the student almost certainly acted as an ordinary, reasonable, prudent person would have, the passerby will not be able to establish a breach of the duty of care.

Answer option A is incorrect, because the student most likely did have a duty to dispose of his banana peel with reasonable care. A duty of care generally arises if it is reasonably foreseeable that an actor’s failure to conform to the applicable standard of care could injure someone. Here, it seems eminently foreseeable that, if the student did not properly dispose of the banana peel, someone could slip on it and suffer injury. The student owed this duty to the other people using the sidewalk at the time he threw out the banana peel and also to those people, like the passerby, who used the sidewalk soon after him.

Answer option C is incorrect. Generally, the element of actual causation is satisfied if the victim’s injury would not have occurred but for the actor’s conduct. Here, had the student not deposited the banana peel in the trash can, the sanitation worker would not have emptied the peel out onto the sidewalk. Had the peel not been on the sidewalk, the passerby would not have been injured. Accordingly, actual causation is satisfied here.

Note that it is also possible that the passerby would fail on the element of proximate cause, because it might not be reasonably foreseeable that a worker would drop the peel and that it would cause an injury. However, proximate cause is not listed as a possible answer option; of the listed elements, the passerby’s clearest weak spot is on the element of breach.

Ok. I forgot about the proximate cause part. Yes, he played a part in the actual cause of the issue, but there was no proximate cause.

Not fully compensating the victim for their damages. Like what’s talked about in Curiosity – The Injustice of Strictly and Literally Making Victims Whole, Such as All Children

Woops @ActiveMind did not mean to make this a reply.


Notes on Duty to Foreseeable Plaintiffs:

  • Duty to Foreseeable Plaintiffs

    • No owed duty, no liability

    • Two views of duty

      • Cardozo View

      • Andrew view

    • The tension between the two views of duty comes from striking the best balance between:

      • 1.) making the people we injure whole

      • 2.) when we should be hold liable for making people we injured whole since we do live in a society where there is always a degree of harm

    • Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad Co.

      • NY Appeal Court

        • Where the Cardozo and Andrew views got their names. One of them was part of the majority and had a view, other was a dissenter and had a view.
      • Cardozo was in the majority. His is the majority view of duty in most jurisdictions.

      • Judge Cardozo

        • “Our duty of using reasonable care runs only to those whom a reasonable person in our position could foresee getting hurt if we do not use reasonable care.”
      • Judge Andrew

        • An example of someone followings Andrews minority viewpoint: Wisconsin.

        • “We all owe the whole world a duty to use reasonable care under the circumstances.”

        • “Everyone owes to the world at large the duty of refraining from those acts that may unreasonably threaten the safety of others.”

      • So the two seem to differ in this language:

        • Cardozo says we are liable if we can foresee someone getting hurt because of what we do and they get hurt from what we do. Andrew says we are liable if we fail to exercise reasonable care to the people around us and they get hurt from what we do. Foreseeability is not important to Andrew. The fact that someone was hurt because of someones actions is all that matters.

        • Andrews will still use foreseeability in determining ultimate liability, but not for the duty question.

          • Ahh I see. Andrews courts will still look for foreseeable effects when determining what damages you are liable for, but they will not use foreseeability in determining whether or not you owe a duty to the plaintiff. You just owe a duty no matter what.
      • Rescue Doctrine:

        • Danger brings about rescuers. You owe a duty to rescuers of the harm you caused (this fits under the Cardozo view). It is foreseeable that a car crash you caused may involve rescuers depending on the nature of the rescue and crash. You can be held liable for any injuries they sustain unless they (the rescuers) acted negligently.

        • Rescue doctrine may not apply to people who are legally required to rescue. People such as firefights, police, and EMTs.

      • Viable Fetus:

        • An expecting mother, when suing on her own behalf, may also sue on the behalf of her fetus.
      • Duty of Care while Undertaking a Rescue:

        • You must reasonable care while doing a rescue. Even if it is a Good Samaritan kind of rescue. I assume here then reasonable care does not fully mean correct care, but idk. I keep hearing how you should attempt CPR even if you don’t really know it because of Good Samaritan reasons. So to hear you may still be liable for someone’s injuries for bad help is odd.
      • Duty Resulting from Creation of Risk

        • You harmed someone non-negligently. You are not going to be liable for anything, but you still have a duty to help support them in a reasonable manner. Hitting someone with your car in a non-negligent manner but leaving them injured on the ground where they can be hit by another car is negligent.

Main takeaway: Under the majority view you owe a duty to foreseeable plaintiffs. Under the minority view you owe a duty to everyone, regardless of whether the harm you caused them was foreseeable. In other words, for the minority view there is no question of whether you owed someone a duty. You always do.

Got one question wrong on the quiz on Duty to Foreseeable Plaintiffs:

A woman was sitting on a bench in a park when she saw a man collapse, clutching at his chest, on the sidewalk nearby. The woman had a working cell phone and knew how to perform cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR). However she did not call anyone for help and did not seek to aid the man in any way. The man was in fact suffering from a heart attack and died thirty minutes later.The man’s estate sued the woman for negligence. The woman moved to dismiss the suit on the ground that she did not owe a duty to the man.

Which of the following issues is most likely to be dispositive in the judge’s consideration of the motion?

From Gemini:

In law, “dispositive” is an adjective describing something that resolves a legal issue, claim, or controversy, often ending a case or parts of it before trial.

Ok. I kinda had a vague idea of what dispositive meant before. I don’t think this is why I got this wrong.

My view was that the women either owed a duty under the minority/Andrew view (meaning she owed a duty to help everyone) or because she played a part in the man’s sudden collapsing. Now that I think about it though, the duty you owe everybody (under the minority view) is the duty to act in a way that doesn’t harm them. It says nothing about helping people. So C doesn’t make sense in this case.

I think the wording of B confused me. I kinda assumed that the women didn’t create any risk of harm. She just observed a man fall. I started assuming things in my head and I thought to myself, “Well I can’t think of any conduct that could create this specific foreseeable risk of harm. What could the women have done for him to have a heart attack(?) or whatever.”

From the explanation:

Answer option B is correct. There are two basic views on the first element of negligence, the duty of reasonable care: (1) the majority or “Cardozo” view is that a duty is owed only to reasonably foreseeable plaintiffs, that is, a duty is owed when a defendant engages in conduct that creates a risk of foreseeable harm to a person in the particular plaintiff’s position; (2) the minority or “Andrews” view is that a duty is owed to everyone, whenever the defendant’s conduct might foreseeably harm someone. Under either of these views, the defendant must be engaged in an activity or conduct of some kind that creates a foreseeable risk of harm to someone. Here, the woman doesn’t appear to have been engaged in any conduct at all by merely sitting on the park bench. At any rate it is unlikely that she was engaged in conduct that a reasonable person would foresee could harm someone. This will be pivotal in the court’s ruling on the motion, because if she wasn’t engaged in conduct that could foreseeably harm someone, under any view of the duty of care, she had no duty to the man.

Here’s a lawyer discussing representing a client who appeared to be guilty but wasn’t. The defendant’s innocence was only discovered during the trial.

You never know who is innocent (Dominic D’Souza Barrister; 8:27)

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I liked the video.

I liked the video but what about cases where you know your client is guilty. He tells you, “Yeah I killed her.” or whatever.

The video covered a case where he had a client who couldn’t answer his questions. Other lawyers deal with lying clients (and he probably has too). That doesn’t mean their guilty or innocent, but I think its a fairly common occurrence for lawyers to represent people who did do the crime and acknowledge that (in a confidential way of course).

I think lawyers instruct clients not to say this kind of thing, but even if they do, the lawyer still doesn’t know they’re guilty. Two reasons that immediately come to mind is survivor guilt and false memories. In the first case, people can think they’re responsible for irrational reasons. In the second people can become convinced they’re responsible for something they’re not (induced confessions can sometimes produce this, esp. if the client did not request a lawyer prior to interrogation).

Those are kind of specific, but in general I think there are always things like this that could apply.

This is all assuming the client is putting in a not-guilty plea. If they are putting in a guilty plea (or a no contest plea) then there’s no issue and the lawyer’s job is clear.

If there’s still an issue, a lawyer can (and I believe must) step down if there is a reason that they cannot represent their client. “recuse” might be the word or that might just be for judges, but it’s that kind of idea. I think this causes a mistrial.

If a client instructs their lawyer something like “yeah I killed her and I want to pay you $50,000 extra to help me lie so I’m found not-guilty”, I am fairly sure the lawyer needs to refuse this (and probably recuse themselves if the case has started and their ability to defend their client is compromised). Also it’s illegal for them to do things like tamper with evidence, destroy evidence, advise their client to do so, etc. (Best case would be losing their license to practice, worst case is becoming complicit in the crime in question.)

There are also criminal defense lawyers (as the joke goes) who will knowingly break the law, but they’re criminals so think of them what you will.

So I guess here’s a more concrete example I think of how defense lawyers of all types (criminal and civil) think they should generally handle themselves:

In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure\_(Bilott_book) a lawyer talks about his legal battle with DuPont. I’ve been listening to it on audiobook and I am almost done but I wanted to bring up how opposing counsel acted because I think most defense lawyers wouldn’t see that big of an issue with it. Bilott didn’t. He thought some things were maybe unprofessional, mean, “bad”, but nothing legally unethical (afaik) to where DuPonts lawyers should lose their jobs.

DuPonts lawyers, in internal emails with DuPont officials, admitted to knowing about the risk of the chemicals DuPont dealt with (due to a mistake by DuPoint privileged emails for certain things were no longer privileged). DuPonts lawyers, and some scientists, warned the higher-ups about the liability and the dangers. They knew their client was in the wrong. Their clients own internal studies showed worrying results about the chemicals they were working with. Yet the lawyers whole treatment of situation was to (presumably by the clients request):

  • Pay off opposing counsel (not settlements, literally paying them off the case) by paying them to be a DuPont expert or something and creating conflicts of interest
  • Destroy records (lawyers deny they ever said this, but DuPont and associated people did do this)
  • Refuse to give records even when a court gave them a strict deadline
  • appeal nearly anything unfavorable to them the judge ruled on and then have the court of appeals take forever (giving them more time to do whatever)
  • when things on one of the cases settled. it needed a professional to manage a medical clinic of sorts. specifically for this point they looked for a professional to help people claim their settlement benefits and go to a clinic for testing. DuPont chose a professional who, in the plaintiffs lawyers opinion (the damaged party), would do a much worse job then their professional because it saved DuPont money.

This is just from memory, but I just wanted to emphasize that doing pretty much anything for your client is almost the culture of defense attorneys especially “good” private ones. A fictional example comes to mind too:

In a show called the Lincoln Lawyer the defense attorney more or less gets his violent client to assault him to scare off a witness from ever testifying. It led to a mistrial and on the new trial that witness would be too scared to ever come back. I think a fair number of defense attorneys would approve of that.

I don’t think many would admit to doing something like that, but I think this is what they consider being a “zealous” advocate for your client consists of.

I’m not saying this is good btw.

Oh yeah to directly answer the point you brought up tho. He would possibly need to remove himself because he was asked to lie/perjure. He would remove himself because he was being asked by his client to commit a crime. If his client just said, “I did it, get me off.” afaik the lawyer is obligated to help get him off the best he can. he can try and explain to the client “No, you did it, the evidence is overwhelming” but he works for his client. The client wants off, its not your job to decide what he wants.

I read/listened to the audiobook of Exposure: Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed, and One Lawyer’s Twenty-Year Battle against DuPont.

I really really liked it.

I liked how the lawyer talked about a lot of the legal process and a lot of his day-to-day life as a lawyer.

I also just liked the lawyer.

Two things I wanted to share from it that I thought was quite depressing:

1.) Notice the title, its a twenty year battle against DuPont (and from the epilogue I think its still going, twenty years was just a huge milestone). It took twenty years to get some kind of significant accountability from DuPont.

2.) It is alarming that, apparently, a large reason we know of the harms of PFOA and related chemicals is pretty much all because of this guy. While 3M and DuPont had internal opinions on the safety of their chemicals, they never publicly disclosed it and continued massive chemical dumping and all. This all started because a farmer didn’t believe the people above him/around him about why his animals were dying. He finally found one person who would listen to him and take him seriously. Robert Bilott was that one person. From there the story begins of, essentially, one lawyer who got us internal information from DuPont about the harms of these chemicals (and much more). Thats terrifying.

How many other people aren’t being listened to? If Robert Bilott never took on that case would we be where we are at now in terms of trying to handle PFOA (which isn’t great, but still)?

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Yeah, that’s one of the things Paths Forward and debate policies are meant to help with!

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~yeah I had Path Forwards in mind when saying that. Didn’t mention it because I forgot some details of Path Forwards (like big details). Imma go re-read about that.

Some more notes (not from today, but didn’t post):

Reasonable Care

  • You are compared against a constructed person. This constructed person is objective, objectively reasonable, prudent, etc.

  • Attributes of the Objectively Reasonable Person:

    • Handicaps are factored in. So if the defendant is a wheelchair user, our reasonable person would also be a wheelchair user. We would then aim to look at the world in the way a reasonable handicapped person would.

    • However, mental attributes (I assume generally?) are not considered. The reasonable person is assumed to have average intelligence. Though some mental things can be taken into account especially if those mental issues have a physiological basis. As we keep the physiological basis in mind for our constructed person.

    • So if someone is shown to have above average intelligence then so will the objectively reasonable person. Hmm. I think this is bad. In one sense I get it: I can understand why you would want to say that Einstein is so smart that he should be so smart in all instances. But is that how that fully works? I think holding Einstein to an average person in many instances in fine, but to assume his intelligence is consistently that amazing across all fields I think is wrong.

  • Emergencies:

    • You are cut some slack in an emergency situation. Hmm. I doubt this. If UgoLord is right, I still remember that wack video of a dude backing up into another card behind him because of the first car. He had a duty to get out of that emergency situation safely. He was expected to process that sudden car backing up, the car behind him, make the best move. all while under, presumably, significantly high risk due to the nature of a car backing into you.
  • Circumstances:

    • What would a reasonable person have done under the circumstances?

    • This can be influenced by customs in an area. However, if the customs themselves are unreasonable they may not be considered.

  • Alternate Standard:

    • Statutory Law

    • Children are compared to other children. They’re mental capacities are taken into consideration, except where they do things that are traditionally adult. Such as driving a car.


Negligence requires:

1.) you owe a duty to someone

2.) that duty requires you to act with a certain standard of care

3.) you must breach that duty by:

  • actually causing harm

  • proximately causing harm (meaning that you created a foreseeable harm)

  • causing a legally recognized harm

This chapter the standard of care you owe to someone you have a duty to.

The standard of care is based on an ideal, but not perfect, person in your context (so we would use a reasonable/ideal doctor, cashier, ship captain). The ideal person has your physical flaws, but not your mental flaws. However, if you are considered smarter than average, then the ideal person is considered smarter than average.

You owe reasonable care to somebody. Not perfect care. Not ideal care. Not above average care. Reasonable care. What is considered reasonable will vary by context.

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Duties to Occupants

Ok. This section is a mix of point 1 and 2 of what negligence requires. It talks about the duties you owe to occupants (1. “you owe a duty to someone”) and the standard of care you owe to those occupants (2. “that duty requires you to act with a certain standard of care).

Occupants refer to people who occupy your “real” (read land/home/building) property. Not people who are occupants in a car or bus or something.

Occupants can be classified in three different ways:

  • Invitees
    • Can be broken down into public invitees and business invitees.
    • Public
      • If your premises are open to the public and someone comes on to your property for that purposes that you opened it for, they are an invitee.
        • You have a park open to the public. The person who comes to run in that park is a public invitee.
    • Business
      • Someone who is on the premises to do some business for the landowner.
        • An example is an exterminator being called into a home for bugs.
  • Trespassers
    • Can be further broken down intro trespassers you know about and don’t know about.
    • What constitutes a trespasser in this context is the same as what constitutes a trespasser to land generally (that consists of intentional, unlawful, physical invasion of real property, and that real property is owned/in the exclusive control of plaintiff).
      • The main difference between a trespasser here and the trespasser in trespass to land is how they deal with intent. Just because someone is not a trespasser in the trespass to land sense (because they entered your property unintentionally from a tornado or something), they are still a trespasser when it comes to the duty/standard of care you owe them.
  • Licensees
    • A catch-all term for what’s left. Someone who is neither a invitee or trespasser.
    • They are on your land by your permission. A typical example is a house guest.

The duty you owe to occupants is based on the type of occupant they are or, something that more courts are (apparently) adopting, is based on a regular reasonable care test (i.e. what care is reasonable here given the context).

Duties you owe based on the type of occupant:

  • Licensees
    • Activities
      • Landowner must take reasonable care in his activities.
      • Landowner is not required to warn about his activities if the harms and what not are obvious.
      • Landowner needs to warn about activities that are dangerous that licensee would not be aware of.
    • Conditions
      • The landowner needs to warn the licensee of dangerous conditions (that licensee wouldn’t easily be aware of) on the land that the landowner is aware of and dangerous conditions on the land that landowner should be aware of (I guess stuff that is blatantly wrong?) or make said conditions safe.
  • Invitees
    • Activities
      • Similar to licensees above
    • Conditions
      • Similar to licensees above, except that landowners are required to proactively inspect their property for dangerous conditions. They need to actually check their land is safe.
  • Trespasser
    • Known
      • Activities
        • Take reasonable care in your actions to not hurt the trespasser.
      • Conditions
        • There is not much case law on duties owed due to natural conditions of the land to known trespassers
        • For man-made conditions there is a duty to warn the known trespasser of any condition they may be close to approaching that may harm them.
    • Unknown
      • Two things owed to unknown trespassers:
        • No booby-traps
        • In very limited circumstances, if you have:
          • 1.) Trespassers go to a specific area on your land a lot
          • 2.) that specific area has a dangerous condition
          • 3.) you, the landowner, have created or maintained that condition
          • 4.) the condition is not obvious and it is likely the trespassers will not know about it/learn about it
          • 5.) if you have all of the above four, you are required to warn those frequent trespassers about the nature of the harm