And he did it without knocking. I’m doubtful in this case that failing to knock was just due to force of habit. Not knocking seems intentional because it’s in line with his attitude to the situation and his behavior after opening the door, and he also didn’t claim it was an accident or show any awareness when writing the post that not knocking was bad.
Do you think it could potentially be categorized as sexual assault if someone walked in on another person changing in a shopping mall change room (and stayed – so not just an accident)? Or if you were visiting a friend, and entered their bedroom while they were changing, and then stayed after they looked visibly upset? Or if someone set up some kind of peephole to look into change rooms?
Do you think it would be utterly insane/rationalistic to categorize those things as sexual assault?
Since you may not want to talk about it, I will just state my own judgements, instead of waiting for you to answer the questions.
I do not think it would be utterly insane or rationalistic to categorize my examples as sexual assault.
I do think it would be reasonable to consider those examples potential sexual assault.
I also think it would be reasonable to consider them “sexual abuse” or “sex crimes”. Different jurisdictions define things differently, but I think any of those words could be reasonable to describe those things, and none of them would be utterly insane or rationalistic.
I think that one difference between my examples and the reddit story is that in the reddit story, the people are married. I don’t think that being married changes whether something is potentially sexual assault or sexual abuse.
I can’t really mentally model what your position is, so I don’t know how to “steel man” it and address it. I thought of two potential points of disagreement (semantics and marriage), so I briefly addressed those.
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Because I have already spent too much time posting about non-philosophy here.
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Because it seems like it would be an uncomfortable conversation.
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I think our disagreement is about the nature of sexual relationships. I have no respect at all for your views on this topic, insofar as I can infer it from things you’ve written over the years.
Oh I hadn’t really considered that in my answer. I said:
But I think that even if she was being really irresponsible with her time and relying on him to manage her time and give her reminders to get places on time, what he did would still be an order of magnitude worse than her behavior.
How is posting in Unbounded not philosophy? Unbounded has a lot to do with how discussions go and is useful for learning philosophy. It’s literally helpful for discussing errors and not putting up boundaries so you can get closer to the truth. Both of those are philosophy I think.
I’m not interested in discussing the definition of philosophy with you. But to give you a clearer idea of what I meant in the text you quoted, what I want to focus on while I’m here is more like the material in this thread: Lmf's quick questions about CF.
If you don’t want to discuss a topic, don’t post about it, or at least be careful with what you say. It’s toxic to trash talk me on a topic you don’t want to talk about. You haven’t given me a reasonable opportunity to learn anything or to defend myself with counter-arguments.
Your attitude looks like typical no-paths-forward infallibilism (or lacking an @ActiveMind in Objectivist terminology). We disagree but you won’t explain or debate. If you’re wrong, your error won’t be corrected; if I’m wrong, mine won’t; in both cases you’re the one causing that outcome despite there being a reasonable opportunity for error correction using only currently existing knowledge. If you feel certain you’re right, so you don’t mind the risk of blocking error correction for yourself, that would be one of the core things CF argues is irrational.
Ok. First I’m just going to write some thoughts down based off of the title of the post:
1.) On the face it this seems mean and I think he is the asshole here. What kind of event was this? How much was she looking forward to it? I can kind of see the benefit of doing something like this. It’s kind of like the saying about giving a man a fish vs teaching them how to fish, however she might not want to learn how to fish because she’s always being given a fish (being helped with her bad time management). Back to my original question though: how big of an event are we talking about here? Was she looking forward to a small event that occurs often/is repeatable? She was looking forward to dinner with certain friends and because she wasn’t helped/rushed she missed it? I think that is kind of fine. She can make-up that event and she’ll still feel bad about missing it. Or is it a big once-in-a-while kind of event like a concert from an artist that isn’t nearby often? Thats mean. Also this just occurred to me: did he communicate thats what he is doing here? Maybe his rushing is kind of a support system that his wife relies on and suddenly he stopped doing it. Thats bad. If he told her the day of the event something like,“Hey I’m bothered by your chronic lateness problem. I don’t know how to make you take it seriously, but today I’m going to give you just one reminder about the event and thats it. The rest is on you.” Something like that would probably be ok. Though he should have probably talked about the lateness issues and stuff before. Mmm. That’s it for now. Let me read the post.
2.) Ok. Just finished reading it. Before I write something, I think it’s kind of bad for people to get married without addressing stuff like this beforehand. This was probably always a problem. Why the heck is he now dealing with it? I doubt within the five years they have been together that he has never been irked by this, he probably has. I guess it took five years for it to get to a breaking point?
To her, it seems like no big deal because I always manage to rush her by telling her the time of an event 45 minutes earlier. She’s never noticed EARLIER because she’s too caught up with herself, constantly taking photos. That’s the reason she’s always late.
Ok so she is using him to get to events on time. Ok, I guess. I mean your just helping your spouse out. Is this really that big of a deal? I think he has some underlying hate towards maybe the photo taking and what not. Right after he says,
She has a decent following on Instagram and is looking to grow as a “content creator.” I find it really silly how she turns everything we do into a photo session, and at this point, I’ve stopped agreeing to take her photos altogether.
I wonder if those quotes are meant to make fun of the idea of being a content creator. Maybe he finds her photo taking thing silly in general. Also again, this was probably always a thing. I don’t get how people let stuff they dislike happen and then get married and then bring it up. Maybe getting married makes them pay attention to stuff like that more? idk.
We’ve had several conversations about this. I’ve told her that it’s mentally exhausting for me to always have to stay on top of making sure we both get ready according to plan. But she never really does anything to address it.
Ok. So I guess this has been addressed before. I wonder if this was ever discussed before marriage? Also I wonder how the conversations went. Maybe he never made it seem to serious of an issue. People do that at times. They’ll mention a problem they have but they don’t want to say it too harshly. They hope the other person will pick up that its still a problem and address it. Has she truly never done anything to address it? While I don’t know know her reasons why, failing to fix your problem is not the same as not addressing it. I’ve known people (and myself) who fail to address a problem and could end up looking to outsiders that they are doing nothing to address it.
This time, I wanted her to experience the consequences of her actions. This month alone, we’ve been embarrassingly late to events 2 times, and this time was the first she realized I hadn’t been honest about the timing because I used to give her an ETA 40 minutes earlier. A week ago, I told her I wouldn’t be doing that anymore and that I expected her to act like an adult and be more responsible.
Ok. He seems kind of mad here. I don’t know. He makes it seem like its for her to experience the consequence of her actions, but I think he just wants to hurt her. I’m confused a bit by the wording here, but it seems like he lied to her about the timing of one of those two events. Thats bad. He tells her to act like an adult, but I don’t know if his handling is mature and adult-like.
It was her birthday this weekend, and I got her tickets to an event featuring several performers, including her favorite artists in the first act.
This time, as I’d already told her before, I didn’t give her the extra 40-minute buffer. I expected her to remember our conversation and store that information in her head to plan accordingly. Instead, she did her whole influencer routine—decorating our room, setting up studio lights, dressing up, and taking photos. The whole time, I knew she was missing out on her favorite artist because she didn’t take me seriously. It was so ironic that I didn’t even feel like reminding her. I’m done with the mental burden of always rushing and planning.
We arrived, and she realized what had happened. She got upset and started crying, asking how I could do this to her on her birthday. She said it seemed like I was liking the rise it got from her and asked why I couldn’t set my “ego” aside for one day. I told her this was on her, I’d already made it clear I wasn’t going to rush anymore, and she should have listened the first time and expected me to follow through, unlike her.
Ok so it was on a kind of big event. Thats bad and mean. There are other occasions this could have been done at.
Maybe it’s because I read (or more so listened) stuff about manipulators and abusers from Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men recently, but this feels manipulative to me. I’m partial to agreeing with her saying that he probably liked the rise hes getting from her. I don’t think thats the kind of thing you would just say in anger.
The ride home was awkward. I was in the downstairs restroom when she texted me saying I wasn’t welcome in the bedroom that night. I ignored her message and went in while she was changing. She looked like she wanted to kill me, and I simply told her that her saying I’m not welcome was irrelevant because it’s my room too. If she’s uncomfortable, she could take the couch. She ended up leaving to visit her mom, and I’m considering whether I was an asshole?
Ehh. I don’t know. I kind of agree with it being his bedroom and stuff. While I don’t know how to properly deal with this kind of stuff while still respecting that its probably both their bedroom and stuff, I do think its kind of bad how he still goes to their room after all that. In the sense of she’s obviously mad at him and doesn’t want to interact, so he should respect that and not interact for a bit. Part of me is partial to thinking that he went to to the bedroom specifically because she texted that.
Overall I think the poster is an asshole.
After reading reddit replies:
After glancing at a comment I just realized something: I think people will be partial to the husband here because they hate content creators/influencer types.
Ok after reading some posts. I could maybe say ESH, but I don’t know. I think I’m partial to her off the limited information we have because I know people who suck with time (I kind of suck myself) that do put effort into fixing it and, for whatever reason, fail to fix it.
Kind of weird that the top posts don’t mention the toxic behavior on his part. Just her bad behavior. Some less popular replies seem more balanced.
Overall after going through replies I think my opinion is still the same. Though some comments on the redditors:
I wonder if people would have such a view with the opposite dynamic? Its kind of normalized to be supportive of a husband who has problems as a wife, but I don’t know. I do think people hate her because she’s an influencer.
Ok. Neat. I thought so too, I was shocked when the top replies were all how he wasn’t the asshole here.
Yeah. From the vibes I get I don’t trust his framing of the events. Even if is both your rooms their is a proper way of going about things. How do you square it being both their rooms? Maybe you answered this elsewhere. I’ll look tomorrow. Tired.
Opinion not updated, he’s still the asshole. Will look at others in this thread tomorrow. Or I guess later today. Man its late.
A post was merged into an existing topic: Eternity Async Tutoring
He could text her or knock and discuss it. If he forgot to knock and saw her changing, he could say “sorry” and close the door, then he’d have options like: wait 15 minutes and knock, speak to her through the door, or text.
He has the property right option to access stuff in his room (not instantly – she can say “wait I’m changing” – but not with a big delay) and to sleep in his bed, although I wouldn’t recommend it in this case if he wants to stay married. If he insists on using the bed despite her request that he stay out of it tonight, he should explicitly offer (on his own initiative) to not touch her while they share the bed (which would help show he actually understands that his property right is to use the bed, not to touch her even if she uses it too), and if that’s inadequate for her she can sleep on the couch or leave since he was unwilling to do those things.
If she was able to make some sort of argument that he couldn’t be trusted not to touch her (or verbally harass her or cross other lines) while they share the bed, then she’d potentially have a property rights argument to exclude him from the bed tonight. In that case there’d be scope for some reasonable debate about the matter (it’s not easy to say exactly what it’d take for him to forfeit his right to sleep in his bed tonight) and they’d want to quickly figure out different arrangements other than sharing a bed. If she merely doesn’t want him to see her naked, she can sleep in pajamas and he can leave the room for short time periods when she wants to change (or she can change in a bathroom).
Yeah that’s a factor. I doubt it’s the decisive issue here though. There exist a million complaints on the internet about non-influencer wives/gfs being slow/late too.
I’m not sure that she’s actually bad at time management or that he’s good at it. There’s some relevant discussion in Analyzing Relationship Drama Reddit Story - #20 by qwerty
I see the problem here but I also think I know the primary reason people don’t address stuff before marriage. I think it’s because they have given up on any sort of thorough problem solving. They expect to put up with lots of unsolved problems on an ongoing basis with all of their friends and family including their spouse. This also applies to coworkers, church members, D&D group members, amateur sports team members, book club members, etc., although in those cases they might have few to no problems with some of the people simply due to not knowing them very well and having limited interactions with them. They think this is just what life is like (and it is, for them and most people). Most people also can’t do reasonable problem solving with their boss or CEO, which I think is important to how they experience and view life.
Another reason people don’t address stuff before marriage is they expect the other person to change after getting married. They think after the wedding their partner will follow the role (as husband or wife) better than before marriage, so they expect things to get better (both from better role following and the role being different). Like if someone’s girlfriend is a poor cook, they might think that good wives are good cooks and just kinda assume that if they get married she’ll learn to cook better (and then she probably won’t, and then he’ll start complaining about something that was foreseeable before the marriage, because he sees being a good cook as part of the wife role that she’s doing a bad job at, whereas he didn’t see it as being so important for the gf role so he didn’t bring it up before).
People may think that since marriage is important, their partner will take the relationship more seriously and try harder after marriage. There’s a common issue where women expect a man to treat them better after marriage but he doesn’t. Sometimes he promised that he would but still doesn’t.
People actually disagree about whether to have children and get married without reaching agreement first. The anti-kid one is thinking “I said I don’t want kids; if s/he marries me anyway they are agreeing to that” while the pro-kid one is thinking the anti-kid one is just being dumb and unreasonable but they’ll come around later and once they are more of a family (by being married) that’ll influence them to do more family type things like have kids. (People genuinely do change some after marriage and do more married-life and family things. People aren’t wrong to expect some changes.) People may think that not wanting kids is a phase related to both being unmarried and being young and that people who claim not to want kids (especially women) are usually lying to themselves. In a world where this happens, it’s unsurprising that lots of people fail to talk out smaller issues like lateness before marriage. People are bad at communication and problem solving. A ton of their attempts at problem solving are just compromises or someone trying to suppress something about themselves (which often works OK in the short term, and sometimes works OK longer term but sometimes doesn’t).
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Yeah I’m not surprised that that book would help. I think this guy is abusive. In general, I think it’s reasonably common that redditors (including left wing people) miss domestic abuse and support abusers. Sometimes they notice but other times they don’t notice and even strongly encourage the abuser (which I think sometimes has significant IRL impacts due to the abuser feeling justified and supported by society as right instead of shunned, so that affects their mindset and behavior). (Some specific subreddits like TwoXChromosomes are much better about this than most subs.)
Yes I was suspicious about that too. Did he go to the room quickly after she texted him not to because he wanted to exert control over her (and for other reasons like to not give her time to calm down and collect herself)? Or did he just go to the room an hour later when he had an actual reason to like he wanted his headphones that he left in there?
People often have an intuitive sense of when would be a good or bad time for their spouse. He might have had an intuitive sense that she would be changing at that time, and intuitively wanted to walk in on that without consciously knowing what he was doing or why. Or he might have just intuitively had a sense of when to go in to be disruptive and not let her get her way. A disruptive time to enter would presumably be soon after she texted, when it’s still soon after they got home, not at a random time later.
You did a good job for a practice analysis. You figured some stuff out.
To look into it further, besides my other replies to you, I have the same issues for you to consider that I brought up with @LMD at Analyzing Relationship Drama Reddit Story - #12 by Elliot
Here’s an example of how unreliable narrators can be:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1g0n4r3/aita_for_removing_my_pregnant_wifes_hands_from_my/
Note what information he left out originally and added in an EDIT after people asked him questions. That’s worse than most cases but it’s unlikely the story we’re analyzing in this topic is actually told in a fair, reasonable way.
Yeah okay that seems like a good idea.
I think probably not.
Stereotypical reasons I can think of for women in particular being slow/late relate to preparing their appearance e.g, picking an outfit and doing make up and hair, etc. Women’s routines for these things are in general longer and more complex than men’s. (But of course, they can be done in an organised way that doesn’t cause one to be late, right? I don’t know a gender specific reason why women might have trouble being organised about that stuff.)
I’m sure that in this particular event, that those appearance preparation things were part of the preparation for the birthday event/concert and influencer things.
Apart from that, I can’t think of any reasons women in particular might be slow/late right now.
It says that post has been removed by Reddit’s filters. The post title is still there though, and sounds super aggressive.
Short version: He complained about his wife taking food off his plate. He left out that she was both hungry and pregnant: They didn’t have enough food and were eating one meal per day. They were in the US and they hadn’t figured out to apply for several different things that could get them food and weren’t using a food bank.