LMD Async Tutoring

I think the two versions are somewhat different and both are OK.

I think you’re incorrect to consider yours better due to being simpler. The word “that” does two things whether you give it two nodes are not. Putting that much complexity into one node has the downside of reducing clarity/explicitness. So I’d consider one or two nodes a neutral issue, not one where you should have much preference.

Your tree doesn’t make it clear that “that” is the object of “note”. I’m not sure if you know it’s functioning as a noun object in addition to functioning as a conjunction.

The other issue is whether you think the two clauses should be joined more as equals or more as a primary clause and a nested modifier clause.

My general approach is to take the view that clauses are big important things, which are unlike adjectives, adverbs and prepositional phrases, so I tend to conjoin them together as peers instead of nesting them like modifiers.

So there are two tree structures here:

For coordinating conjunctions, I think it’s fairly clear you should tree them with the green tree structure.

For subordinating conjunctions, like “because”, I also normally tree them with the green tree structure. The green tree structure grants clause 2 and the conjunction more importance (they’re higher in the tree) while granting clause 1 less importance (it’s lower in the tree), and it makes the clauses roughly equal instead of clearly unequal.

I don’t think there’s a strict single right answer for how to structure subordinating conjunctions but I found this works well in general.

I basically just use the blue tree structure when it’s the only good option. If I can treat a clause as important, I do by default, but if there’s some reason that doesn’t work well then I’ll switch.

Try making both structures for these sentences to compare:

I eat apples because I like apples.

The car which looks cool is red.

I think that books are useful.

@Eternity you may want to try this too

Yeah this makes sense but in general I’d just make a phrasal verb one node.

If you’re going to split it into two nodes, make the particle yellow not orange. It isn’t a modifier. And I’d suggest putting the particle as probably the first child or at least before modifiers.

In the video I see I put “of as” as a single preposition node. That seems good enough for analyzing/understanding the sentence in general but is probably grammatically wrong. Unless I give a good reason for doing that in the video, then I think the phrasal verb approach is better here.

2 Likes

I have been fully occupied for the last two days with moving house. I have work today but will post something this evening.

1 Like

I watched the rest of the grammar video to see your tree for the second sentence. You didn’t explain much about the ‘of as’ node, you seemed to just treat it as one preposition node.

I also noticed that I left out the ‘yet’ of my tree. I do agree with you in the video in that that it was a modifier and not a conjunction. You had the finite verb and non-finite verbs all as one node, but I think it’d be a modifier of ‘been’ specifically.

This isn’t as substantial a post as I would’ve liked, and I didn’t get to posting last night. The move has been pretty disruptive for my schedule and there is more to do, but from tomorrow things will be a lot easier. I should be able to catch up tomorrow.

Yeah okay. I can see that having it as one node does trade off with clarity/explicitness.

No I do know that it’s functioning as both. I thought that labelling it a relative pronoun would be enough to indicate its dual role. I put ‘subordinator’ to indicate the general type of thing it is and ‘relative pronoun’ to be more specific. But you’re saying that my tree doesn’t make it clear that it’s also the object (compared to yours?). Is that because it looks more like something introducing a clause?

Yeah okay. I can see how for this sentence they can be neatly represented as two sibling clauses. I can imagine that for longer sentences where the “that” is further down the tree, that it could be preferable to use the blue tree structure.

I prefer the green tree structure.


I don’t really know how to tree this with the green tree structure. ‘Which’ is both the subject of ‘looks’ and relates the clause ‘which looks cool’ to ‘car’. It seems less like a conjunction because it isn’t joining things of the same type.

Actually maybe “The car is red which looks cool” does make sense. Sounds like an old version of English or something.

The blue sentence tree is more how I actually think of the sentence when I read it.


This one is just like the second sentence in the video. Something I notice is that the sibling order can be reversed in the green structure and still makes sense e.g,: “Books are useful and I think that”

I am having some trouble finding helpful info on single word restrictive/non-restrictive adverbs.

This is about the only place I have found that mentions restrictive adverbs: https://www.righttouchediting.com/2020/11/12/adverb-placement-generally-and-specifically/. I can’t tell if this is the same concept of restrictiveness but applied to adverbs. It uses words like ‘only’ and ‘exclusively’ as examples of ‘restrictive’ adverbs. That article says they restrict meaning.

Nouns refer to things, and restrictive adjectives can help narrow down what thing is being referred to.

Adverbs modify things that aren’t nouns, aren’t things. So what would restrictiveness mean to e.g an action verb?

I’m a bit stuck here. How does the concept of restrictiveness work for adverbs?

I think the answer is it doesn’t apply. Restrictiveness is related to the identity of things (nouns).

1 Like

I agree. I think this is a clear example where you have a clause nested inside another clause. “which looks cool” is not a peer/sibling clause. It’s less important and less independent.

So which tree do you prefer for this sentence and why?

Sorry, I should’ve tried to say. I don’t know. The blue tree structure is cleaner and simpler. But the clause ‘books are useful’ doesn’t feel like it’s nested like in the previous clause ‘which looks cool’. It feels like a sibling.

I think perhaps part of the conflict is I don’t like the green tree for aesthetic reasons? (I don’t know if aesthetic is the right word). It seems like it’s a harder to interpret or understand, with the implied word and the arrow.

I think though, that it does better reflect the relationships between the clauses.

I think the decisive issue is whether the second clause should be a peer/sibling or a nested/child clause. I think looking at other factors like which one you think is cleaner and simpler is distracting from the one key issue.

Both tree structures are fine as tree structures and you shouldn’t biased for or against either structure independent of what the sentence is.

That’s a completely reasonable viewpoint and you can make trees accordingly. Don’t get hung up on aesthetics.

The implied “[= and]” part and the arrow are both unnecessary. They aren’t bad but you shouldn’t choose your tree structure based on not liking some optional details.

Because your green tree has more details, I think it’s clearer. You could have put more optional details on the blue tree, but didn’t (which is OK: I think they’re optional). So it isn’t really a fair comparison since one has more optional clarification than the other.

1 Like

Yeah okay. I agree actually. It was helpful for me to put into words what my objections were and then seeing that they were actually not relevant to the issue. Thanks for clarifying that.

All that you’ve said here makes sense to me. I prefer the clauses as peer/siblings rather than as nested/children.

Moving is a lot. Don’t pressure yourself too much.

1 Like

Some more paragraph trees. All are consecutive paragraphs from Profit and Loss by Ludwig Von Mises. Part B, section 4: The Equality Argument.


In the eyes of the parties who style themselves progressive and leftist the main vice of capitalism is the inequality of incomes and wealth. The ultimate end of their policies is to establish equality. The moderates want to attain this goal step by step; the radicals plan to attain it at one stroke, by a revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist mode of production.

[1] In the eyes of the parties who style themselves progressive and leftist the main vice of capitalism is the inequality of incomes and wealth.

[2] The ultimate end of their policies is to establish equality.

[3] The moderates want to attain this goal step by step;

[4] the radicals plan to attain it at one stroke, by a revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist mode of production.

1 is root. Topic is that the left parties think the main thing wrong with capitalism is wealth inequality.

2 talks about the left parties and their goal to establish equality.

3 is a child of 2. It talks about the goal in 2. It doesn’t make sense without 2. It talks how to moderates want to achieve the goal.

4 is a talks about how the radicals want to achieve the goal in 2.

I think 3 and 4 are siblings.


However, in talking about equality and asking vehemently for its realization, nobody advocates a curtailment of his own present income. The term equality as employed in contemporary political language always means upward leveling of one’s income, never downward leveling. It means getting more, not sharing one’s own affluence with people who have less.

[1] However, in talking about equality and asking vehemently for its realization, nobody advocates a curtailment of his own present income.

[2] The term equality as employed in contemporary political language always means upward leveling of one’s income, never downward leveling.

[3] It means getting more, not sharing one’s own affluence with people who have less.

I think 1 is the root. In advocating equality, nobody advocates a curtailment of their own income. I think that’s the topic.

2 says that the term “equality” as used in contemporary politics always means an upward leveling. I think 2 is a child of 1.

3 says the term means getting more for oneself, not sharing with those who have less. 3 is giving more details about what people think equality would mean. I’m not sure if 3 is a child of 1 or 2. 3 shares some similar features to 2, kind of like a restatement. 2’s structure is: X means always Y, and never Z. 3’s structure is: X means P and not Q. I think 3 is a child of 2. Its more detail, or further elaboration on 2 in the style of a restatement.


If the American automobile worker, railroadman, or compositor says equality, he means expropriating the holders of shares and bonds for his own benefit. He does not consider sharing with the unskilled workers who earn less. At best, he thinks of equality of all American citizens. It never occurs to him that the peoples of Latin America, Asia, and Africa may interpret the postulate of equality as world equality and not as national equality.

[1] If the American automobile worker, railroadman, or compositor says equality, he means expropriating the holders of shares and bonds for his own benefit.

[2] He does not consider sharing with the unskilled workers who earn less.

[3] At best, he thinks of equality of all American citizens.

[4] It never occurs to him that the peoples of Latin America, Asia, and Africa may interpret the postulate of equality as world equality and not as national equality.

I think 1 is root.

2 seems like a part of 1. 1 talks about how the worker means expropriating those economically above him. 2 comments on how he doesn’t consider that equality could mean sharing with workers below him.

Is 3 a child of 2 or 1? I don’t think that 3 depends on 2. I think that 2 and 3 are siblings.

What is 4 a child of? I think just a paragraph of {1, 4} makes sense. I don’t think 4 depends on either 2 or 3. Although, 4 does talk about world equality vs national equality, and 3 talks about national i.e American equality. Okay, actually I think that 4 makes more sense as a child of 3. It brings up world equality in response to national equality.

Looks good.

Try making some trees with only the key words for each node instead of the full text. E.g. the root here could be “vice is inequality”. Modifiers can be included when you think they’re needed for the tree to make sense or they affect where nodes go in the tree. This will make the tree more of a quick summary that’s easier to work with.

Yeah both are reasonable. So consider: should 3 be nested further? Is it clearly a less important, more minor sub-part of the paragraph compared to 2, or would it be reasonable to have it on the same level of importance as 2? As a general rule of thumb, I’d suggest putting things as high up in the tree as is reasonable when the tree isn’t crowded. Default away from nesting until there are too many siblings.

How many siblings is a good amount? Up to 3 is basically always fine and up to 5 is commonly fine. As a loose rule of thumb, crowded tends to start at approximately 6. With small trees you can lower the numbers slightly and with really huge trees you can raise them slightly, but they don’t change a lot with the number of nodes in the tree.

1 Like

I agree.

1 and 4 contain conjunctions. Did you consider splitting them into multiple nodes? How do you decide when to split up clauses?

I didn’t no. Actually, I think I just didn’t notice that those sentences had clauses joined by conjunctions and could be split up.

In general I have been looking at these paragraphs from the point of view of sentences and not clauses. Sometimes though I have split them up into clauses. I think that happens when I notice them and when I know how to diagram them. I think I might be avoiding doing them if I’m not sure how to diagram them. That makes them easier for me.

As a general rule of thumb: If the sentence tree would have two clauses as siblings, then split them up for a paragraph tree. If one clause would be nested under the other in the sentence tree, then don’t split them for the paragraph tree.

Don’t split it up if one clause is really boring/irrelevant like “I think that X” regardless of how you’d do the tree.

1 Like

From: Analyzing Relationship Drama Reddit Story

My work on this assignment was posted in that thread.

Assignment: Consider and vote in my poll: Capitalism Means Policing Big Companies - #72 by Elliot

I voted 90%-100% in the poll.

I haven’t looked into fraud cases of large companies myself, so I felt a bit like I didn’t know enough to vote. A lot of what I know has come through the CF forum and through some of your youtube videos. Some of the questions that I considered when voting were:

Do I think our society polices fraud adequately? No. Do I think that the general population understands how big of deal fraud is? No. Do we have free markets? No.

Also, most places I’ve worked have discouraged employees being honest with customers when there is an issue/when the business is at fault. A lot of dishonesty is encouraged for the sake of maintaining an appearance of professionalism and competence. Lots of lying in tiny ways all the time. I’ve never worked for a billion dollar company, but I think that’s probably how businesses all the way up work too.