Non-Tribalist Politics Megathread

I think it’s evil though.

They didn’t fail because of the principles though. The fact that external events can affect outcomes doesn’t change the moral truth of a principle. If anything complexity of life makes moral principles more necessary.

Yeah, I agree. What are you getting at?

To clarify, I meant the common good as it’s commonly used, implying a collective entity (“society”, “the people”) that has interests apart from its individual members. No such collective organism exists. There are only individuals with different values and goals. it doesn’t have objective meaning because it refers to a collective abstraction without concrete referents.

I was referring to a moral peace. But yeah, you can get people to obey and submit out of fear. I hear North Korea is peaceful in that way.

The solution is morality.

This hypothetical reminds me of a Youtube video of Elliot’s:

If you want to embed a video it needs to be on a line by itself.

This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHWw6J8eBLc

vs.

this:

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Got it. Thanks!

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I think using North Korea as an example is you using charged political rhetoric.

I think this situation also applies routinely to 100% of all countries (including all western countries) across all periods of human history. Do you disagree that citizens in the US or other western countries have been pressured/coerced into living peacefully together?

Note that this should be judged using your definition of coerced. Which I think includes any law that in any way infringes on any individual rights, correct?

If it applies everywhere, why cite North Korea?

I might agree with this sentence, but I find this answer unsatisfying by itself. Especially in the context of the real world. I don’t think it’s sufficient.

I am not sure the problems I have are present in the podcast you linked. Can you answer my question in your own words?

Calling back an earlier quote that is also relevant:

I think this maybe reveals a key difference between us. Your view of an imperfect piecemeal solution requires always moving towards your ideal principles. I think piecemeal changes can include messy and not perfectly principled decisions to try to mitigate real harm. I think they can include mixed solutions that are a bit bad but more good. I think fallibility also applies to principles, so believing principles are right no matter how much those principles fail to prevent harm is a potential sign that our principles are confused, have an error, or imperfectly understood.

I don’t think any of this is morally relativist, but I am not currently convinced we would agree about what moral relativism even is. So I expect you may consider it to be morally relativist.

PS: I think there have been some good arguments, good points, and good questions (from me but also from other people) that you haven’t answered. I may stop replying soon until some of those are replied to. For example, the concrete question you were asked earlier. I pinged you about it as well.

Here is a hypothetical to consider:

You drive drunk and hit someone. Entirely your fault. You’re going to jail. The person you hit is in critical condition, but alive. But the accident destroyed both of their kidneys.

For whatever reason, there are no viable donors to save their life… except you. You have 2 kidneys. You can spare one and live. If you donate it, they live. If you don’t, they die.

You voluntarily engaged in actions that led to this situation. Does that mean you accepted the possible consequences? Should the state compel you to donate your kidney?

I think it would be the right thing to do. You owe the guy. It’s your fault he’s in this mess. But while people might condemn you morally, I don’t think most modern liberal western democracies would compel you to do it. I think you’d be allowed to make that moral error out of respect for your bodily autonomy.

In fact, you can make the hypothetical less extreme… the victim just needs some blood, not a kidney. This is less extreme because donating a kidney is a permanent injury to you, but blood regenerates. Even then, I don’t think the government would compel you to give your blood to save them. That is a level of medical intrusion, a violation of bodily autonomy, that we are not normally okay with in modern liberal society.

What do you think? Do you disagree? I think it would be interesting if we found an area where you are more comfortable with a violation of individual rights than I am.

I agree. And, even further than this, many places – including the United States – respect your bodily autonomy so much that they wouldn’t compel organ donation even if you were brain dead. You could be brain dead with no chance of survival, and a perfect organ donor, and they still would not harvest your organs unless you had already signed up as an organ donor, or your family or next of kin agreed to the organ donation.

Yeah. When an outcome is bad, you should critically reconsider the principles that were involved in causing it. It’s an opportunity to improve your principles, not IMO a reason to value principles less. When a bad outcome is caused in any significant part by bad principles, that actually demonstrates the importance of principles and the harm errors regarding principles can do. It doesn’t demonstrate that principles are less important.

In general, principles and outcomes aren’t in conflict, and I don’t think one should pick one or the other to prioritize: it’s important to think about both and try to get both right and try to keep them in harmony.

For example, if you value free speech, but you see a social media platform censor free speech, you might say “well, private businesses have a right to do that on principle”. But I think ending the analysis there is a mistake. When there’s a bad outcome, you should consider if any of your other principles conflict with that outcome. If you can’t come up with any principle you have which is in conflict with the bad outcome, then you may have an issue with your principles. If you can come up with one, you should talk about that too, not exclusively talk about the principle of freedom for private businesses. Valuing free speech is a principle so you could say that you think the business is making a mistake and analyze how it’s a bad business decision and immoral. I’ve seen libertarians not even say that. And I think you ought to be able to come up with some other principles that are being violated too and talk about those too. Hopefully your principles are pretty overwhelmingly against censorship overall, so you ought to be making that case and pointing out many different principled reasons it’s bad instead of excusing it just because a private business did it and you like freedom.

A reason people downplay principles sometimes, in favor of outcomes, is they use principles wrong. So basically they have some wrong meta-principles (or thinking methods).

For example, people focus on local optima. They don’t want to go “in the wrong direction”. They resist any change they see as going in the wrong direction according to a principle they have, e.g. (for libertarian types) any raise of taxes, any restriction on free speech, any infringement on freedom, any regulation on businesses, any increase in government size or spending, etc. Sometimes people use this sort of reasoning sometimes but not other times (they object to many increases in government size on principle but then in some specific case they like it and don’t bring up that objection).

The concept of directions is wrong and is related to viewing things in terms of quantitative spectrums instead of decisive factors that make qualitative differences. This connects with CF. When something is not close to what you want, and a change makes it also not close to what you want, in general it doesn’t really matter and you shouldn’t care much. Resisting any changes away from local optima peaks is actually harmful to the goal of one day getting to a better society that fits your principles. Resisting any change that isn’t on a straight line path towards your final goals, or which goes in the wrong direction even briefly, is just as dumb as applying that reasoning to driving home. Sometimes the best route to drive home involves driving away from your home (judged by straight line distance or as the crow flies) for part of the route. Or if you’re on a winding hiking trail, walking to your destination may involve going the wrong direction (wrong in the naive, simplistic sense) sometimes.

Thanks for the comment. I think your analysis makes sense to me.

This makes sense. Going to quote myself here as well to compare/consider my thought process:

I think this was a bit ambiguous. When I say caring a lot more, what I mean is “caring a lot more than I used to” rather than “caring a lot more than I do about principles

I think there were areas in the past where I felt strongly that the principles were right and specific bad outcomes that appeared to arise as a result of those principles were not important/just due to imperfect application of principles/etc. That is the sort of thinking I am trying to reject and why I am trying to focus on outcomes a lot more than I used to.

Another intent was to contrast my current thinking on this topic with Neo’s, which seems familiar to me. I was trying to emphasize that I think outcomes are important, and that principles are not very valuable to me when assessed with no regard to outcomes. I think this is a notable disagreement between me and Neo.

Good analogies.

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All of my commentary will be based on very limited political knowledge from 3/4 years ago. I have done very little, if any at all, research.


I know there’s some more discussion afterwards, but you question how @anonymous105 knew what Elon felt seems to contradict a sentiment of yours in a different thread, Small Talk, Low Talk and Social Status :

I share the Elliot part because he questioned you on knowing that and you responded with:

The contradiction, to me, is in questioning @anonymous105 about their knowledge of how Elon felt. It felt, first of all, defensive of Elon (which, I guess, there’s nothing wrong with that) and your reply didn’t seem like it took into account why they might think that.

That’s what my mind jumped to. Even if he’s not a nazi I think its plausible he did a nazi salute just to be funny. He doesn’t treat it seriously.

Idk. I guess that depends on your view of the proud boys and stuff. I’ll trust you here that they are a terrorist group, but, previously, they were presented to a lot of right wing people as just a bunch of guys who like Trump and are proud of America.

Hmm. I guess my point is what do the Proud Boys see themselves as? I can see the Standing by sir comment as being problematic if they and Trump thought of themselves as a terrorist group. Otherwise, it just sounds like a joking confirmation of a misspeak.

January 6th?

Hmm. This sounds bad. It is bad. This doesn’t seem to different from normal politicking stuff, right? Like politicians want votes/support so they’re doing stuff to make sure they get them. Is the votes/support they want here abnormal in political history?


Not sinster, sure, but it may be a pattern.

Do you think this accusation was absurd?

I don’t think it was. He doesn’t need to do a super sad apology or something, but he can acknowledge that it looked like that and still say people are wrong.

hes deflecting? how? what does deflecting here mean? or, put differently, what is he deflecting with his trolling and humor?

But why would he accept it? I think its obvious he would reject it.

What evidence is @anonymous105 not considering?

That makes sense.

Hmm. I think this point from @Neo makes sense. Along with what he said here:

but what I’m confused here with is: what would @Neo consider enough to support a nazi salute? The motions are insufficient. Ok, sure. What is needed to make it sufficient? Going to a nazi event? and only something that extreme?

Hmm. Like he called the claims made by nazis hoaxes? or that people thinking hes a nazi is a hoax?

I mean thats easy to do, but I see the point. In terms of what he said on Rogan: who cares? There’s no reason to acknowledge hes a nazi (if hes a nazi).

Do you think Elons actions are not pro nazi?

Oh there’s a gesture for that?

How long was between this event and the one where he did the “nazi” salute? I guess it wouldn’t matter, but if they were very close to each other then it shows he knew how to do the correct gesture all along. Though how hard is it to learn something like this?

I asked it before, but now I’m more curious, what context do you need for it to be a nazi salute?

I think it’s (probably) a common tactic to mix some bad thing in with the good. Do a nazi salute, but do it with the good thing of “my heart goes out to you.”

Good catch about the different attitude in the different thread.

Overall for your replies: what do you think of them? Organized or disorganized? Productive for reaching conclusions or no? Fun? Useful? Any ways you’d like them to be better? Did you have any specific goals which you think you did or didn’t achieve?

Mmm. Idk? There ok. I’m just treating them in a manner to make conversation. Just trying to ask questions and share some thoughts.

Mmm. I think its kinda organized. I made some replies to the original posts in order, but in terms of my own thoughts/points its kinda disorganized I guess? Like I bring up the point to @Neo about what he would consider enough to consider something a nazi salute twice. But like there was no need to. It wasn’t like he had a proper time to respond. I just made a big post, went in order and posted. My points aren’t neatly laid out I think.

Idk.

If I found it fun/useful? I found this fun. Idk how useful they were.

No. Not saying they’re perfect, but no clue on what I’d want to change.

No.


Just to share: I didn’t post on the discussion here (and the feminist topic too) because I don’t want to break into a discussion between two people. Well, at least thats a large part of the reason. Is this a normal concern on a forum? I think this is a normal thing to think in normal conversation, I don’t know if the same politeness(?) matters here.

It’s reasonably normal but please don’t avoid discussions for that reason. It’s also reasonably normal on forums or Reddit for other people to join in. On this forum, in general I want people to feel free to join in and post their thoughts. If someone wants a 1 vs 1 debate they can explicitly ask for it. If someone doesn’t want you to break in, they can make a request. The tutoring section has special rules. By default you can comment in any topic about any post or subject matter.

I personally usually want people to break in during my conversations. Sometimes I wait a few days before replying because I’d prefer someone else answer.

One reason for limiting participants in a discussion is using voice so only one person can talk at once. That doesn’t apply here. Another reason is trying to keep things organized. But there are better organization methods than trying to keep the number of people and posts low (which often fails to keep things organized anyway).

Sometimes people don’t want to feel outnumbered. I’ve been outnumbered many times. If someone doesn’t like being outnumbered, they could ask for a 1 vs 1 debate, or use trees, or pace themselves, or get tutoring, or share the problem in the discussion and ask others to participate in problem solving (in which case, more people participating tends to be better, not worse, as long as they aren’t tribalist foes).

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That makes sense. I noticed your posts didn’t seem focused on decisive arguments.

I think it’s useful to write a lot as long as it’s reasonably fun, not painful, and the quality isn’t awful. I think writing thousands of posts is good practice and will help you gradually improve.

If you want to work on that, try making a tree related to this.